Open source updates cost TIME instead of $$$

[Stephen Russell]

Open Source is free as in Frustration.

Don't let anyone lie to you and say that it is not.

Just had an install scheduled for Monday 4-26 get derailed because of updates.

I work with java based Web Services for data access to the massive
systems for the court and the jail. Well a new version of their
production SERVER has not been able to be built and this afternoon was
drop dead date. They cannot get all of the tools loaded on this box
like they have working on the stage one. Manpower on this is in
multiple man weeks. Only 2 people have been working on it and a third
was brought in to duplicate the fiasco.

The same group spent close to a month on the Stage box and this a
mirror of it.

I have to not laugh when I see the frustration on their faces. I have
brought over programmer candy twice, Advill is you didn't know the
joke.

They are trying very hard, they are pretty smart people up against a
multitude of product versions and updates that all have to be
installed a specific way. I lived this same level of bull shit when I
thought that I would boot Linux and vbox Win7. What a load of crap
that was. The straw that broke that back was an update to Ubuntu 9.10
and the vbox failed. That was it I had wasted way to many hours for 0
value. Well I did love the Frustration and yes that was free.

--
Stephen Russell

Sr. Production Systems Programmer
CIMSgts

901.246-0159 cell

[Ed Leafe]

On Apr 21, 2010, at 2:36 PM, Stephen Russell wrote:

> Open Source is free as in Frustration.
>
> Don't let anyone lie to you and say that it is not.
>
> Just had an install scheduled for Monday 4-26 get derailed because of updates.


Oh, this is just plain silly.

You describe a horribly mis-managed project, and proceed to paint all open-source projects with the same brush. Why they wouldn't be using an LTS release instead of the cutting-edge release is beyond me, and shows basic incompetence. Yes, it's true that poor planning and execution can derail any project, and the licensing of the source code really doesn't affect that.


-- Ed Leafe

[Stephen Russell]

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 1:42 PM, Ed Leafe <***@leafe.com> wrote:
> On Apr 21, 2010, at 2:36 PM, Stephen Russell wrote:
>
>> Open Source is free as in Frustration.
>>
>> Don't let anyone lie to you and say that it is not.
>>
>> Just had an install scheduled for Monday 4-26 get derailed because of updates.
>
>
>        Oh, this is just plain silly.
>
>        You describe a horribly mis-managed project, and proceed to paint all open-source projects with the same brush. Why they wouldn't be using an LTS release instead of the cutting-edge release is beyond me, and shows basic incompetence. Yes, it's true that poor planning and execution can derail any project, and the licensing of the source code really doesn't affect that.
---------------------------------------

Ed I am an outsider who has to interact with this team and I am the #
1 consumer of their work as of now.

They didn't mis-manage this at all. They did a proof of concept on a
test server, bought a pair of great servers to learn on and then
reproduce the success on. Sorry but this has been a sinking ship
since Feb when they started on the first of the pair. You learn what
to do and then dupe it. Instead there are many man weeks on the
project for this already for teh DUPE box alone.

I have no idea what release(s) they used for success on Stage but I
can tell you that it doesn't work on the Prod box.

The problem may be the vast number of packages they are using to make
this all fit together? This is a java app so the add on list is
large.

Free as in Frustration. I might have to make an eCard with that line
on it after they get their act together.

As an outside vendor I am waiting on them another month to get this
together. The other client within the county won't pay for this
because it is still not running. :) We have been on hold Feb, March,
April and now into May. That is $$ to my company in receivables that
we have billed for but check is in hold mode till it runs.



--
Stephen Russell

Sr. Production Systems Programmer
CIMSgts

901.246-0159 cell

[Ed Leafe]

On Apr 21, 2010, at 3:22 PM, Stephen Russell wrote:

> They didn't mis-manage this at all. They did a proof of concept on a
> test server, bought a pair of great servers to learn on and then
> reproduce the success on. Sorry but this has been a sinking ship
> since Feb when they started on the first of the pair. You learn what
> to do and then dupe it. Instead there are many man weeks on the
> project for this already for teh DUPE box alone.


Yes, and there are thousands of companies running millions of web sites and other applications on LAMP; there are thousands of companies using Postfix, sendmail, Courier and dovecot for their email needs, and millions of email lists using Mailman to handle their email list needs.

Then there's your company, who seem to be having some basic problems getting a machine to run, and in your opinion, that completely negates every other experience.

You remind me of the people who ran into a VFP app written by a piss-poor developer, and then declares that all VFP apps are crap.


-- Ed Leafe

[Ted Roche]

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 4:34 PM, Ed Leafe <***@leafe.com> wrote:
>
>   Then there's your company, who seem to be having some basic problems getting a machine to run, and in your opinion, that completely negates every other experience.
>

Well, to be fair, Linux has a bit more trouble with hardware, since
some companies are not willing to provide sufficient details for
drivers to be developed. That's what the other Steve ran into with
wireless; if the vendor doesn't offer offer support, a device can be
hard to run if it doesn't use standard APIs.

Linux has a number of solutions to this, like the firmware cutter
project, which basically runs a Windows wireless driver in Linux, but
that requires some good support. Steve's $200 seemed wasted on that.
The local LUG should have been able to help him out and spend the
money on pizza and beer.

--
Ted Roche
Ted Roche & Associates, LLC
http://www.tedroche.com

[Ed Leafe]

On Apr 21, 2010, at 4:42 PM, Ted Roche wrote:

>> Then there's your company, who seem to be having some basic problems getting a machine to run, and in your opinion, that completely negates every other experience.
>
> Well, to be fair, Linux has a bit more trouble with hardware, since
> some companies are not willing to provide sufficient details for
> drivers to be developed.

If that were the issue, I would agree. But Steve said it was a matter of not being able to reproduce a server installation, and not anything to do with hardware drivers.


-- Ed Leafe

[Stephen Russell]

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 3:53 PM, Ed Leafe <***@leafe.com> wrote:
> On Apr 21, 2010, at 4:42 PM, Ted Roche wrote:
>
>>>    Then there's your company, who seem to be having some basic problems getting a machine to run, and in your opinion, that completely negates every other experience.
>>
>> Well, to be fair, Linux has a bit more trouble with hardware, since
>> some companies are not willing to provide sufficient details for
>> drivers to be developed.
>
>        If that were the issue, I would agree. But Steve said it was a matter of not being able to reproduce a server installation, and not anything to do with hardware drivers.
-------------------------

That is correct.

I am not part of that team, instead I am waiting with baited breath
for them to complete their task. It is true that they cannot complete
a clean install for all of the packages on distro.

One of those people is supposed to do all of the data methods for me
so I have been waiting for 8 entire working days for the next method
that was missing from her initial "here is your stuff and this is the
cert file." Many bugs were identified and none of them have been
looked at.

I have many requests in for data, and I am just keeping busy instead
of moving forward on 3 projects. I had to learn 2 java products to
make code changes myself so I know how it goes when you are in a new
"work" area. When I was learning at least I replied to emails instead
of blowing off everything.

--
Stephen Russell

Sr. Production Systems Programmer
CIMSgts

901.246-0159 cell

[MB Software Solutions, LLC]

Ed Leafe wrote:
> You remind me of the people who ran into a VFP app written by a piss-poor developer, and then declares that all VFP apps are crap.


Unfortunately, there are tons of people like that. That really seems to
have hurt VFP's image, imo.

--
Mike Babcock, MCP
MB Software Solutions, LLC
President, Chief Software Architect
http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com
http://fabmate.com
http://twitter.com/mbabcock16

[geoff]

I don't think that's the sole province of VFP or any particular language.
I've spent most of my career working on other peoples crap and with only a
few exceptions made me feel good about my own rather limited abilities.


-----Original Message-----
From: profox-***@leafe.com [mailto:profox-***@leafe.com] On Behalf
Of MB Software Solutions, LLC
Sent: Thursday, 22 April 2010 7:51 AM
To: ProFox Email List
Subject: Re: Open source updates cost TIME instead of $$$

Ed Leafe wrote:
> You remind me of the people who ran into a VFP app written by a
piss-poor developer, and then declares that all VFP apps are crap.


Unfortunately, there are tons of people like that. That really seems to
have hurt VFP's image, imo.

--
Mike Babcock, MCP
MB Software Solutions, LLC
President, Chief Software Architect
http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com
http://fabmate.com
http://twitter.com/mbabcock16

[excessive quoting removed by server]

[Jeff Johnson]

How do you think Access and VB got such great reputations as toys and
not real programmers. I've run into one or two .NET projects that
really didn't work.

Jeff

Jeff Johnson
***@san-dc.com
SanDC, Inc.
623-582-0323
Fax [phone]

http://www.VetsFindingVets.org

On 4/21/2010 3:21 PM, MB Software Solutions, LLC wrote:
> Ed Leafe wrote:
>> You remind me of the people who ran into a VFP app written by a piss-poor developer, and then declares that all VFP apps are crap.
>
>
> Unfortunately, there are tons of people like that. That really seems to
> have hurt VFP's image, imo.
>

[Virgil Bierschwale]

I haven't been following this conversation, but it amazes me how
everybody wants to blame the programmer.
The programmer reports to the manager.
If the manager is not doing their job mentoring the employee, it will
show in their performance.

I know nobody agrees with me, but thats the way it is.
If somebody that works for you is not doing their job, it is because you
are not doing a good job at training them, mentoring them and providing
a methodology so that they will know how their peformance is in respect
to what you expect of them.

From my perspective, no project should even be allowed to get off the
ground until you can walk through every phase of it in your mind and
drive every nail in your mind.

On 4/21/2010 5:33 PM, Jeff Johnson wrote:
> How do you think Access and VB got such great reputations as toys and
> not real programmers. I've run into one or two .NET projects that
> really didn't work.
>
> Jeff
>
> Jeff Johnson
> ***@san-dc.com
> SanDC, Inc.
> 623-582-0323
> Fax [phone]
>
> http://www.VetsFindingVets.org
>
> On 4/21/2010 3:21 PM, MB Software Solutions, LLC wrote:
>
>> Ed Leafe wrote:
>>
>>> You remind me of the people who ran into a VFP app written by a piss-poor developer, and then declares that all VFP apps are crap.
>>>
>>
>> Unfortunately, there are tons of people like that. That really seems to
>> have hurt VFP's image, imo.
>>
>>
[excessive quoting removed by server]

[Alan Bourke]

On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 19:38 -0500, "Virgil Bierschwale" <***@ktc.com>
wrote:

> I know nobody agrees with me, but thats the way it is.
> If somebody that works for you is not doing their job, it is because you
> are not doing a good job at training them, mentoring them and providing
> a methodology so that they will know how their peformance is in respect
> to what you expect of them.

Is there any scope there for them just being a crap programmer ;)
--
Alan Bourke
alanpbourke (at) fastmail (dot) fm

[Stephen Russell]

> On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 19:38 -0500, "Virgil Bierschwale" <***@ktc.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I know nobody agrees with me, but thats the way it is.
>> If somebody that works for you is not doing their job, it is because you
>> are not doing a good job at training them, mentoring them and providing
>> a methodology so that they will know how their peformance is in respect
>> to what you expect of them.
------------------------------------------------

Unless they are learning something new. Which I expect them to do all
on their own time and then bring that technology into work. Oh shit
that is what my boss says. "How can I bill your time for learning
J-Query" Because I am using it in the new replacement for the client?




--
Stephen Russell

Sr. Production Systems Programmer
CIMSgts

901.246-0159 cell

[Virgil Bierschwale]

its worked great for the military for generations.
I'm not a historian, but I believe it also worked great for all the
trades in europe where a person was required to serve under a master
before being considered able to stand on their own.

Perhaps we need to bring back the draft for all of you that never served
in the military so that you might better comprehend <grin>

As for your question, perhaps your manager needs to better understand
what you are doing and perhaps you could enlighten him what it would
cost him to bring in a J-Query specialist

On 4/22/2010 8:37 AM, Stephen Russell wrote:
>> On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 19:38 -0500, "Virgil Bierschwale"<***@ktc.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I know nobody agrees with me, but thats the way it is.
>>> If somebody that works for you is not doing their job, it is because you
>>> are not doing a good job at training them, mentoring them and providing
>>> a methodology so that they will know how their peformance is in respect
>>> to what you expect of them.
>>>
> ------------------------------------------------
>
> Unless they are learning something new. Which I expect them to do all
> on their own time and then bring that technology into work. Oh shit
> that is what my boss says. "How can I bill your time for learning
> J-Query" Because I am using it in the new replacement for the client?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2827 - Release Date: 04/21/10 13:31:00
>
>

--
Virgil Bierschwale
Vets Finding Vets <http://www.VetsFindingVets.org>
Keep America At Work <http://www.KeepAmericaAtWork.com>


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[Stephen Russell]

On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 8:42 AM, Virgil Bierschwale <***@ktc.com> wrote:
> its worked great for the military for generations.
> I'm not a historian, but I believe it also worked great for all the
> trades in europe where a person was required to serve under a master
> before being considered able to stand on their own.
-------------------

Sure. They have bases for officers to go to to learn more and grow in
rank or for enlisted to LEARN a new skill set. Too bad your reference
was to a typical employee that has to produce or get replaced.

> Perhaps we need to bring back the draft for all of you that never served
> in the military so that you might better comprehend <grin>
>
> As for your question, perhaps your manager needs to better understand
> what you are doing and perhaps you could enlighten him what it would
> cost him to bring in a J-Query specialist
--------------

Then he wouldn't be A-Typical management "Dilbert" style now would he?

His strength is to REPLACE one manual paper process with an identical
electronic document one. No gain/change in the "process" just a
different transport medium.


--
Stephen Russell

Sr. Production Systems Programmer
CIMSgts

901.246-0159 cell

[Pete Theisen]

Stephen Russell wrote:
>> my boss says. "How can I bill your time for learning

Hi Stephen,

Would it help to use an expensive buzzword? You can bill for
"engineering study" or "technical research".

--
Regards,

Pete
http://pete-theisen.com/
http://elect-pete-theisen.com/

[Stephen Russell]

On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 8:48 AM, Pete Theisen <***@verizon.net> wrote:
> Stephen Russell wrote:
>>> my boss says.  "How can I bill your time for learning
>
> Hi Stephen,
>
> Would it help to use an expensive buzzword? You can bill for
> "engineering study" or "technical research".
--------------------

Just strike the word Learn with Implement jQuery presentation of
documents picked replacing the zip file presented in former process.

I can fill in the valleys with ...... stuff.

But in reality I am taking out a huge process and replacing it with a
fetch on demand instead of prepackage all documents and you can open
what you want when I send you a potential huge pile of crap.

Because Boss didn't think of this it is a bad idea at this time. :(

--
Stephen Russell

Sr. Production Systems Programmer
CIMSgts

901.246-0159 cell

[h***@hrsdc-rhdcc.gc.ca]

I just realized that I never before used updatable views where more than one table needed to be updated. I now see that the joinable fields do not get automatically filled (to maintain the JOIN).

In the example below, I need to update all fields except 3: The two PKs (they are AutoInc) and HsgUnit.fk_address (I won't know the value until Address.pk_address gets auto-filled when a record is added to Address).

SELECT Address.pk_address, (some ADDRESS fields), ;
Hsgunit.pk_hsgunit, Hsgunit.fk_address, (some HSGUNIT fields) ;
FROM LOCVIEW!ADDRESS ;
INNER JOIN LOCVIEW!HSGUNIT ON Address.pk_address = Hsgunit.fk_address

Considering that the view is JOINed by the pk_adress-fk_address, I would have expected HsgUnit.fk_address to get populated on save.

What am I missing?

Thx

Henry

[Dave Crozier]

Henry,
You need to set the Cursorsetprop() properties. Specifically the following
properties:

Buffering
Tables
UpdatableFieldlist
UpdateNamelist
KeyfieldList
Wheretype

Haven't got time to explain what they should be set to but post a question
if you can't make it out as the documentation isn't obvious in the
UpdatableFieldlist, UpdateNamelist and KeyfieldList properties.

If you take a look at Paul McNett's make cursor updateable .prg program this
will give you a good grounding. I think it is in the download files section
of Ed's site.

Dave C

-----Original Message-----
From: profox-***@leafe.com [mailto:profox-***@leafe.com] On Behalf
Of ***@hrsdc-rhdcc.gc.ca
Sent: 22 April 2010 15:05
To: ***@leafe.com; ***@leafe.com
Subject: Updatable local view with multiple tables


I just realized that I never before used updatable views where more than one
table needed to be updated. I now see that the joinable fields do not get
automatically filled (to maintain the JOIN).

In the example below, I need to update all fields except 3: The two PKs
(they are AutoInc) and HsgUnit.fk_address (I won't know the value until
Address.pk_address gets auto-filled when a record is added to Address).

SELECT Address.pk_address, (some ADDRESS fields), ;
Hsgunit.pk_hsgunit, Hsgunit.fk_address, (some HSGUNIT fields) ;
FROM LOCVIEW!ADDRESS ;
INNER JOIN LOCVIEW!HSGUNIT ON Address.pk_address = Hsgunit.fk_address

Considering that the view is JOINed by the pk_adress-fk_address, I would
have expected HsgUnit.fk_address to get populated on save.

What am I missing?

Thx

Henry

[excessive quoting removed by server]

[MB Software Solutions, LLC]

Dave Crozier wrote:
> Henry,
> You need to set the Cursorsetprop() properties. Specifically the following
> properties:
>
> Buffering
> Tables
> UpdatableFieldlist
> UpdateNamelist
> KeyfieldList
> Wheretype
>
> Haven't got time to explain what they should be set to but post a question
> if you can't make it out as the documentation isn't obvious in the
> UpdatableFieldlist, UpdateNamelist and KeyfieldList properties.
>
> If you take a look at Paul McNett's make cursor updateable .prg program this
> will give you a good grounding. I think it is in the download files section
> of Ed's site.


makeupdatable.prg --> http://leafe.com/dls/vfp

I use Paul's code (slightly modified, but 99% the same) for production
apps now for years with great success. My apps use MySQL for the backend.

--
Mike Babcock, MCP
MB Software Solutions, LLC
President, Chief Software Architect
http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com
http://fabmate.com
http://twitter.com/mbabcock16

[MB Software Solutions, LLC]

***@hrsdc-rhdcc.gc.ca wrote:
> I just realized that I never before used updatable views where more than one table needed to be updated. I now see that the joinable fields do not get automatically filled (to maintain the JOIN).
>
> In the example below, I need to update all fields except 3: The two PKs (they are AutoInc) and HsgUnit.fk_address (I won't know the value until Address.pk_address gets auto-filled when a record is added to Address).
>
> SELECT Address.pk_address, (some ADDRESS fields), ;
> Hsgunit.pk_hsgunit, Hsgunit.fk_address, (some HSGUNIT fields) ;
> FROM LOCVIEW!ADDRESS ;
> INNER JOIN LOCVIEW!HSGUNIT ON Address.pk_address = Hsgunit.fk_address
>
> Considering that the view is JOINed by the pk_adress-fk_address, I would have expected HsgUnit.fk_address to get populated on save.
>
> What am I missing?
>
> Thx
>
> Henry


Try to avoid using a single view to update multiple tables via the
native view means. The problem comes with the primary keys....if the
view doesn't have a primary key for a table, how will it know which
record(s) to update? You might have to resort to using explicit code to
do the updates.

--
Mike Babcock, MCP
MB Software Solutions, LLC
President, Chief Software Architect
http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com
http://fabmate.com
http://twitter.com/mbabcock16

[h***@hrsdc-rhdcc.gc.ca]

Thanks to all who replied.

1- Mike, The view does have primary keys. One per table. It also knows how they join. I figured on tableupdate it would 'know' how to preserve the linkage.

2- I never got Dave Crozier's reply. Weird.

3- Dave, I do set quite a few DBSetProp()s. Didn't want to burden people with a big chunk but I could post the REAL view definition, along with the settings that follow it. You say the word ;-)

4- Do other people agree with Mike's advice to avoid relying on native behaviour to update multiple tables from one view?

5- Stephen, I hear you re: not using AutoInc. Too late in the game for me AND it has been very good for me otherwise.

Thanks again...

Henry


-----Original Message-----
From: profoxtech-***@leafe.com [mailto:profoxtech-***@leafe.com] On Behalf Of MB Software Solutions,LLC
Sent: April 23, 2010 12:51 AM
To: ***@leafe.com
Subject: Re: Updatable local view with multiple tables

***@hrsdc-rhdcc.gc.ca wrote:
> I just realized that I never before used updatable views where more than one table needed to be updated. I now see that the joinable fields do not get automatically filled (to maintain the JOIN).
>
> In the example below, I need to update all fields except 3: The two PKs (they are AutoInc) and HsgUnit.fk_address (I won't know the value until Address.pk_address gets auto-filled when a record is added to Address).
>
> SELECT Address.pk_address, (some ADDRESS fields), ;
> Hsgunit.pk_hsgunit, Hsgunit.fk_address, (some HSGUNIT fields) ;
> FROM LOCVIEW!ADDRESS ; INNER JOIN LOCVIEW!HSGUNIT ON
> Address.pk_address = Hsgunit.fk_address
>
> Considering that the view is JOINed by the pk_adress-fk_address, I would have expected HsgUnit.fk_address to get populated on save.
>
> What am I missing?
>
> Thx
>
> Henry


Try to avoid using a single view to update multiple tables via the native view means. The problem comes with the primary keys....if the view doesn't have a primary key for a table, how will it know which
record(s) to update? You might have to resort to using explicit code to do the updates.

--
Mike Babcock, MCP
MB Software Solutions, LLC
President, Chief Software Architect
http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com
http://fabmate.com
http://twitter.com/mbabcock16

[Dave Crozier]

Henry,
Let fly with the code...!
We can only but try to help.

Dave C


-----Original Message-----
From: profox-***@leafe.com [mailto:profox-***@leafe.com] On Behalf
Of ***@hrsdc-rhdcc.gc.ca
Sent: 23 April 2010 12:47
To: ***@leafe.com; ***@leafe.com
Subject: RE: Updatable local view with multiple tables


Thanks to all who replied.

1- Mike, The view does have primary keys. One per table. It also knows how
they join. I figured on tableupdate it would 'know' how to preserve the
linkage.

2- I never got Dave Crozier's reply. Weird.

3- Dave, I do set quite a few DBSetProp()s. Didn't want to burden people
with a big chunk but I could post the REAL view definition, along with the
settings that follow it. You say the word ;-)

4- Do other people agree with Mike's advice to avoid relying on native
behaviour to update multiple tables from one view?

5- Stephen, I hear you re: not using AutoInc. Too late in the game for me
AND it has been very good for me otherwise.

Thanks again...

Henry


-----Original Message-----
From: profoxtech-***@leafe.com [mailto:profoxtech-***@leafe.com] On
Behalf Of MB Software Solutions,LLC
Sent: April 23, 2010 12:51 AM
To: ***@leafe.com
Subject: Re: Updatable local view with multiple tables

***@hrsdc-rhdcc.gc.ca wrote:
> I just realized that I never before used updatable views where more than
one table needed to be updated. I now see that the joinable fields do not
get automatically filled (to maintain the JOIN).
>
> In the example below, I need to update all fields except 3: The two PKs
(they are AutoInc) and HsgUnit.fk_address (I won't know the value until
Address.pk_address gets auto-filled when a record is added to Address).
>
> SELECT Address.pk_address, (some ADDRESS fields), ;
> Hsgunit.pk_hsgunit, Hsgunit.fk_address, (some HSGUNIT fields) ;
> FROM LOCVIEW!ADDRESS ; INNER JOIN LOCVIEW!HSGUNIT ON
> Address.pk_address = Hsgunit.fk_address
>
> Considering that the view is JOINed by the pk_adress-fk_address, I would
have expected HsgUnit.fk_address to get populated on save.
>
> What am I missing?
>
> Thx
>
> Henry


Try to avoid using a single view to update multiple tables via the native
view means. The problem comes with the primary keys....if the view doesn't
have a primary key for a table, how will it know which
record(s) to update? You might have to resort to using explicit code to do
the updates.

--
Mike Babcock, MCP
MB Software Solutions, LLC
President, Chief Software Architect
http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com
http://fabmate.com
http://twitter.com/mbabcock16


[excessive quoting removed by server]

[Stephen Russell]

On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 11:50 PM, MB Software Solutions, LLC
<***@mbsoftwaresolutions.com> wrote:
> Try to avoid using a single view to update multiple tables via the
> native view means.  The problem comes with the primary keys....if the
> view doesn't have a primary key for a table, how will it know which
> record(s) to update?  You might have to resort to using explicit code to
> do the updates.
--------------------------

The power of the guid as the PKey suddenly shines bright!

When you assign the guid and put that in the row's memory container
before the insert it is all good at insert.


--
Stephen Russell

Sr. Production Systems Programmer
CIMSgts

901.246-0159 cell

[MB Software Solutions, LLC]

Stephen Russell wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 11:50 PM, MB Software Solutions, LLC
> <***@mbsoftwaresolutions.com> wrote:
>> Try to avoid using a single view to update multiple tables via the
>> native view means. The problem comes with the primary keys....if the
>> view doesn't have a primary key for a table, how will it know which
>> record(s) to update? You might have to resort to using explicit code to
>> do the updates.
> --------------------------
>
> The power of the guid as the PKey suddenly shines bright!
>
> When you assign the guid and put that in the row's memory container
> before the insert it is all good at insert.


Whether GUID or integer keys, he still faces the same problem. GUID
doesn't bring a magical solution to this, unless I'm misunderstanding.

--
Mike Babcock, MCP
MB Software Solutions, LLC
President, Chief Software Architect
http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com
http://fabmate.com
http://twitter.com/mbabcock16

[Stephen Russell]

On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 2:35 PM, MB Software Solutions, LLC
<***@mbsoftwaresolutions.com> wrote:
> Stephen Russell wrote:
>> On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 11:50 PM, MB Software Solutions, LLC
>> <***@mbsoftwaresolutions.com> wrote:
>>> Try to avoid using a single view to update multiple tables via the
>>> native view means.  The problem comes with the primary keys....if the
>>> view doesn't have a primary key for a table, how will it know which
>>> record(s) to update?  You might have to resort to using explicit code to
>>> do the updates.
>> --------------------------
>>
>> The power of the guid as the PKey suddenly shines bright!
>>
>> When you assign the guid and put that in the row's memory container
>> before the insert it is all good at insert.
>
>
> Whether GUID or integer keys, he still faces the same problem.  GUID
> doesn't bring a magical solution to this, unless I'm misunderstanding.
-------------------------

Point I thought I was making is that a guid can be created ANYWHERE
and not as an aspect of in insert. So that same value is placed in
both PK & FKey segments of the row, and a second guid is generated for
the Child table PKey.

Not sure if this would work because I never insert into a view that is
joined myself.

Because you have cursorupdate method I have no idea if it checks for
present data and updates and if no data it inserts. I don't have that
method.

Found out that I cannot "Msg 4405, Level 16, State 1, Line 9
View or function 'lvTest' is not updatable because the modification
affects multiple base tables."

insert into lvTest (id, name, id2, t1id, othername)
values ('c727b527-eb71-40a4-9cdb-87b98a27c35b' , 't1 name',
'81BC986A-FB2D-48ef-AAFB-9ED6613D5E32','c727b527-eb71-40a4-9cdb-87b98a27c35b',
'test2 other name')



--
Stephen Russell

Sr. Production Systems Programmer
CIMSgts

901.246-0159 cell

[Virgil Bierschwale]

actually any competent manager would have a slush fund account for
"training" because anybody that has ever done any type of productivity
study will realize that 100% billable is a figment of their imagination
and if you look at a lot of the job postings you will usually see a line
that says something like "Uses spare time to stay on top of the latest
industry trends"


On 4/22/2010 8:48 AM, Pete Theisen wrote:
> Stephen Russell wrote:
>
>>> my boss says. "How can I bill your time for learning
>>>
> Hi Stephen,
>
> Would it help to use an expensive buzzword? You can bill for
> "engineering study" or "technical research".
>
>
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2827 - Release Date: 04/21/10 13:31:00
>
>

--
Virgil Bierschwale
Vets Finding Vets <http://www.VetsFindingVets.org>
Keep America At Work <http://www.KeepAmericaAtWork.com>


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[MB Software Solutions, LLC]

Stephen Russell wrote:
>> On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 19:38 -0500, "Virgil Bierschwale" <***@ktc.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I know nobody agrees with me, but thats the way it is.
>>> If somebody that works for you is not doing their job, it is because you
>>> are not doing a good job at training them, mentoring them and providing
>>> a methodology so that they will know how their peformance is in respect
>>> to what you expect of them.
> ------------------------------------------------
>
> Unless they are learning something new. Which I expect them to do all
> on their own time and then bring that technology into work. Oh shit
> that is what my boss says. "How can I bill your time for learning
> J-Query" Because I am using it in the new replacement for the client?


Seems more and more like nobody wants to pay for anything...employers
are expecting employees to foot all the bill...not even tuition
reimbursement in some circumstances. :-(

[Rick Schummer]

>> Seems more and more like nobody wants to pay for anything...employers are
expecting employees to foot all the bill...not even tuition reimbursement in
some circumstances. :-(<<

Yes, this is very much the common thoughts of those who are working for "the
man". In Michigan (#1 in unemployment in the USA for years, suffering a one
state depression, and already predicted to not get out of the recession
while the rest of the country recovers) people are just happy to be working.
Putting in a few hours a week to invest in YOUR career is not asking so much
when we all work in at-will jobs (regardless if you are employee, employer,
or independent). From my perspective, I hire smart people who care enough
about their career to make this investment. Why? Because that is how I did
it.

As the old saying goes, if you think your employer is not treating you the
way you think you are entitled, find some other company who will. What you
may find is the grass is just green enough on your side of the fence.


Rick
White Light Computing, Inc.

www.whitelightcomputing.com
www.swfox.net
www.rickschummer.com

[Pete Theisen]

Rick Schummer wrote:
>>> Seems more and more like nobody wants to pay for anything...employers are
> expecting employees to foot all the bill...not even tuition reimbursement in
> some circumstances. :-(<<
>
> Yes, this is very much the common thoughts of those who are working for "the
> man". In Michigan (#1 in unemployment in the USA for years, suffering a one
> state depression, and already predicted to not get out of the recession
> while the rest of the country recovers) people are just happy to be working.
> Putting in a few hours a week to invest in YOUR career is not asking so much
> when we all work in at-will jobs (regardless if you are employee, employer,
> or independent). From my perspective, I hire smart people who care enough
> about their career to make this investment. Why? Because that is how I did
> it.
>
> As the old saying goes, if you think your employer is not treating you the
> way you think you are entitled, find some other company who will. What you
> may find is the grass is just green enough on your side of the fence.

Hi Rick,

We have been buying our own toilet paper here for over a year. They say
if we want to come over to the main office on our own time they will
give us a roll - as in one roll. The catch is that the gas costs more
than the single roll of toilet paper.

Never mind that a courier comes to our office several times a week with
other stuff, but not toilet paper.

This is not to mention paper towels.
--
Regards,

Pete
http://pete-theisen.com/
http://elect-pete-theisen.com/

[Rick Schummer]

Pete,

>> We have been buying our own toilet paper here for over a year.<<

Honestly, there is a big difference between someone treating someone in a
subhuman manner, and not sending them to a training class to learn something
they could learn by reading a book, going online and reading forum,
listening to podcasts, and the like. Your story is sad, but not comparable
to the discussion of training.

Rick
White Light Computing, Inc.

www.whitelightcomputing.com
www.swfox.net
www.rickschummer.com

[Pete Theisen]

Rick Schummer wrote:
> Pete,
>
>>> We have been buying our own toilet paper here for over a year.<<
>
> Honestly, there is a big difference between someone treating someone in a
> subhuman manner, and not sending them to a training class to learn something
> they could learn by reading a book, going online and reading forum,
> listening to podcasts, and the like. Your story is sad, but not comparable
> to the discussion of training.

Hi Rick,

Funny you should mention training. They make us drive ten miles for a
roll of toilet paper, but they have training on their website, you can
train at home on your own time, but not on the job. I actually took
about ten segments of the training.

However, they did not credit me for the training. I haven't pursued
*why* I didn't get credit. I expected it to be automatic - you have to
be logged in to even see the lessons, but perhaps it is not. A lot of
guys *did* get credit, written up in the (print) newsletter and all that.

Odd.
--
Regards,

Pete
http://pete-theisen.com/
http://elect-pete-theisen.com/

[Paul Hill]

On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 10:52 PM, Pete Theisen <***@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>> We have been buying our own toilet paper here for over a year.<<

I see a solution to your problem:

> A lot of guys *did* get credit, written up in the (print) newsletter and all that.

Newspaper you say?

--
Paul

[Pete Theisen]

Paul Hill wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 10:52 PM, Pete Theisen <***@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>> We have been buying our own toilet paper here for over a year.<<
>
> I see a solution to your problem:
>
>> A lot of guys *did* get credit, written up in the (print) newsletter and all that.
>
> Newspaper you say?
>

Hi Paul,

No, the company newsletter. As in "these employees have taken x number
of training modules".

Going to the press is no solution. Whistleblowers around here get not
only fired but blacklisted. Better to just buy the toilet paper and
shut-the-hell-up.

They let us use our own computers on the job site if we wish, but there
is no Internet connection. Thus, we have to do the part of the job that
requires a connection on our own time somewhere else.
--
Regards,

Pete
http://pete-theisen.com/
http://elect-pete-theisen.com/

[Paul Hill]

On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Pete Theisen <***@verizon.net> wrote:
> Paul Hill wrote:
>> On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 10:52 PM, Pete Theisen <***@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>> We have been buying our own toilet paper here for over a year.<<
>>
>> I see a solution to your problem:
>>
>>> A lot of guys *did* get credit, written up in the (print) newsletter and all that.
>>
>> Newspaper you say?
>>
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> No, the company newsletter. As in "these employees have taken x number
> of training modules".

LOL! Actually I meant that you could use the newspaper as toilet paper :-)

--
Paul

[Pete Theisen]

Paul Hill wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Pete Theisen <***@verizon.net> wrote:
>> Paul Hill wrote:
>>> On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 10:52 PM, Pete Theisen <***@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> We have been buying our own toilet paper here for over a year.<<
>>> I see a solution to your problem:
>>>
>>>> A lot of guys *did* get credit, written up in the (print) newsletter and all that.
>>> Newspaper you say?
>>>
>> Hi Paul,
>>
>> No, the company newsletter. As in "these employees have taken x number
>> of training modules".
>
> LOL! Actually I meant that you could use the newspaper as toilet paper :-)

Hi Paul,

They print it on photo paper so the picture of the boss will look nice,
it would be like "John Wayne toilet paper". Rough, tough and won't take
s*it off of anybody.
--
Regards,

Pete
http://pete-theisen.com/
http://elect-pete-theisen.com/

[Jarvis, Matthew]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: profoxtech-***@leafe.com
[mailto:profoxtech-***@leafe.com]
> On Behalf Of Paul Hill
> Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 3:55 AM
> To: ***@leafe.com
> Subject: Re: Open source updates cost TIME instead of $$$
>
> On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 10:52 PM, Pete Theisen
<***@verizon.net>
> wrote:
> >>>> We have been buying our own toilet paper here for over a year.<<
>
> I see a solution to your problem:
>
> > A lot of guys *did* get credit, written up in the (print) newsletter
and
> all that.
>
> Newspaper you say?

'tis funny something like toilet paper (known simply as "TP" here in the
states) would give some folks such aggravation - in this case -
beancounter tightwads...

My father tells a story of a high level executive office he used to work
in, and one day the manager got his panties in a wad about how much TP
the office was using. So the manager proceeded to demonstrate the proper
technique to use TP most efficently....

Thanks,

Matthew Jarvis || Business Systems Analyst
IT Department
McKenzie-Willamette Medical Center
1460 G Street, Springfield, OR 97477 || Ph: 541-744-6092 || Fax:
541-744-6145

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: This electronic message may contain information that is
Proprietary, Confidential, or legally privileged or protected. It
is intended only for the use of the individual(s) and entity named
in the message. If you are not an intended recipient of this
message, please notify the sender immediately and delete the
material from your computer. Do not deliver, distribute or copy
this message and do not disclose its contents or take any action in
reliance on the information it contains.

[Pete Theisen]

Jarvis, Matthew wrote:

>> On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 10:52 PM, Pete Theisen
> <***@verizon.net>
>> wrote:
>>>>>> We have been buying our own toilet paper here for over a year.<<
>> I see a solution to your problem:
>>
>>> A lot of guys *did* get credit, written up in the (print) newsletter
> and
>> all that.
>>
>> Newspaper you say?
>
> 'tis funny something like toilet paper (known simply as "TP" here in the
> states) would give some folks such aggravation - in this case -
> beancounter tightwads...
>
> My father tells a story of a high level executive office he used to work
> in, and one day the manager got his panties in a wad about how much TP
> the office was using. So the manager proceeded to demonstrate the proper
> technique to use TP most efficently....

Hi Matthew,

Tell me it was *not* a co-ed office.
--
Regards,

Pete
http://pete-theisen.com/
http://elect-pete-theisen.com/

[Alan Bourke]

On Fri, 23 Apr 2010 13:46 -0400, "Pete Theisen"
<***@verizon.net> wrote:

>
> We have been buying our own toilet paper here for over a year.

Wow. I'm fairly sure that sort of nonsense would be illegal here.
--
Alan Bourke
alanpbourke (at) fastmail (dot) fm

[Pete Theisen]

Alan Bourke wrote:
>
> On Fri, 23 Apr 2010 13:46 -0400, "Pete Theisen"
> <***@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> We have been buying our own toilet paper here for over a year.
>
> Wow. I'm fairly sure that sort of nonsense would be illegal here.

Hi Alan,

Seems (from my aging memory) that you are in the socialist UK and spend
some time in the socialist northern USA as well. In Florida we only have
socialism for the rich, the poor have to supply the capital and the labor.

I have always had to buy my own software, and often my own computer as
well. One time I had an hourly job where the boss told me to clock out
at a certain time, then continue working until I had the rest of the
work done.

That was in Michigan. That boss has by now relocated to Florida. We even
have bosses in some companies using key loggers and paying employees so
much for so many keystrokes and not by the hour.
--
Regards,

Pete
http://pete-theisen.com/
http://elect-pete-theisen.com/

[Alan Bourke]

On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 17:58 -0400, "Pete Theisen"
<***@verizon.net> wrote:

> Seems (from my aging memory) that you are in the socialist UK

Ireland. Not especially socialist compared to say, France.

>
> That was in Michigan. That boss has by now relocated to Florida. We even
> have bosses in some companies using key loggers and paying employees so
> much for so many keystrokes and not by the hour.

Well, we do have a pretty strong regulatory mechanism to stop employers
really taking liberties - I can't remember any software shop I know of
where the employees had to supply equipment and so on. I think the
boards of US companies here probably seethe at the amount of holidays
and maternity leave that the law provides for in most of the EU.
--
Alan Bourke
alanpbourke (at) fastmail (dot) fm

[Ricardo Aráoz]

Alan Bourke wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 17:58 -0400, "Pete Theisen"
> <***@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>> Seems (from my aging memory) that you are in the socialist UK
>>
>
> Ireland. Not especially socialist compared to say, France.
>
Ok, here's a thing I've noticed on his conception of politics. He says
socialist and thinks it's a unique thing, blind to the fact that there
are degrees and shades of socialism, not only among countries but in the
same country.

>> That was in Michigan. That boss has by now relocated to Florida. We even
>> have bosses in some companies using key loggers and paying employees so
>> much for so many keystrokes and not by the hour.
>>
>
> Well, we do have a pretty strong regulatory mechanism to stop employers
> really taking liberties - I can't remember any software shop I know of
> where the employees had to supply equipment and so on. I think the
> boards of US companies here probably seethe at the amount of holidays
> and maternity leave that the law provides for in most of the EU.
>
Luckily we have pretty strong syndicates here too, hence good regulatory
work laws. Anyhow about 10 years ago, in the bad economic times, there
was this scandal about the women at the cash registers of a supermarket
being supplied adult diapers and not allowed to leave their work place
for 10 hours. In that situation, with huge unemployment and fear amongst
workers, some people were willing to withstand that, until an employee
blowed the whistle. Which kind of shows you capitalism should always be
strongly regulated.



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[MB Software Solutions, LLC]

Alan Bourke wrote:
>
> On Fri, 23 Apr 2010 13:46 -0400, "Pete Theisen"
> <***@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> We have been buying our own toilet paper here for over a year.
>
> Wow. I'm fairly sure that sort of nonsense would be illegal here.


Get the heck out, Pete. Your stories are so heinous they border on
unbelievable. Are you sure you're not sampling the drugs? Seriously,
man, if it's that bad, you should have left by now.

[Pete Theisen]

MB Software Solutions, LLC wrote:

>>> We have been buying our own toilet paper here for over a year.
>> Wow. I'm fairly sure that sort of nonsense would be illegal here.
>
> Get the heck out, Pete. Your stories are so heinous they border on
> unbelievable. Are you sure you're not sampling the drugs? Seriously,
> man, if it's that bad, you should have left by now.

Hi Michael,

There is nowhere to go. I am 65, diabetic, I have foot and back problems
and this is Florida. The only industries are medical, legal, banking,
retail, "hospitality" and security - none of these are hiring, unless
snagging "young and cute" for the wrong reasons is "hiring".

OK, there is government, and I did run for office a couple of years ago.
Didn't win. There were 8 other candidates for 2 positions, far better
odds than any other jobs.

Every now and then a position will be advertised. It hits the papers
that there might be 2000 applicants. Most jobs are filled instantly from
applications that have been on file for a while. The true unemployment
rate is probably 3 or 4 times what they admit to.

The other people working where I do are also up in years have similar
disabilities. We are all looking for something else - but for people
like us, there is nothing.

They passed a state law a few years ago that school districts had to let
teachers use the toilet when they needed to. Of course, most districts
already did, but the fact that the law was needed to reign in the few
that didn't shows the attitude toward employees down here.
--
Regards,

Pete
http://pete-theisen.com/
http://elect-pete-theisen.com/

[Virgil Bierschwale]

its about the same here in central texas jobs wise...

On 4/25/2010 9:05 AM, Pete Theisen wrote:
> MB Software Solutions, LLC wrote:
>
>
>>>> We have been buying our own toilet paper here for over a year.
>>>>
>>> Wow. I'm fairly sure that sort of nonsense would be illegal here.
>>>
>> Get the heck out, Pete. Your stories are so heinous they border on
>> unbelievable. Are you sure you're not sampling the drugs? Seriously,
>> man, if it's that bad, you should have left by now.
>>
> Hi Michael,
>
> There is nowhere to go. I am 65, diabetic, I have foot and back problems
> and this is Florida. The only industries are medical, legal, banking,
> retail, "hospitality" and security - none of these are hiring, unless
> snagging "young and cute" for the wrong reasons is "hiring".
>
> OK, there is government, and I did run for office a couple of years ago.
> Didn't win. There were 8 other candidates for 2 positions, far better
> odds than any other jobs.
>
> Every now and then a position will be advertised. It hits the papers
> that there might be 2000 applicants. Most jobs are filled instantly from
> applications that have been on file for a while. The true unemployment
> rate is probably 3 or 4 times what they admit to.
>
> The other people working where I do are also up in years have similar
> disabilities. We are all looking for something else - but for people
> like us, there is nothing.
>
> They passed a state law a few years ago that school districts had to let
> teachers use the toilet when they needed to. Of course, most districts
> already did, but the fact that the law was needed to reign in the few
> that didn't shows the attitude toward employees down here.
>
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2834 - Release Date: 04/25/10 01:31:00
>
>

--
Virgil Bierschwale
Vets Finding Vets <http://www.VetsFindingVets.org>
Keep America At Work <http://www.KeepAmericaAtWork.com>


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[Pete Theisen]

Virgil Bierschwale wrote:
> its about the same here in central texas jobs wise...

Hi Virgil,

People who have worked all the way through this without significant loss
of hours or rate reductions just have no idea. Can't tell them, either,
they ask you if you are on drugs, then tell you to go find a better job.

>>>>> We have been buying our own toilet paper here for over a year.
>>>>>
>>>> Wow. I'm fairly sure that sort of nonsense would be illegal here.
>>>>
>>> Get the heck out, Pete. Your stories are so heinous they border on
>>> unbelievable. Are you sure you're not sampling the drugs? Seriously,
>>> man, if it's that bad, you should have left by now.

>> There is nowhere to go. I am 65, diabetic, I have foot and back problems
--
Regards,

Pete
http://pete-theisen.com/
http://elect-pete-theisen.com/

[Virgil Bierschwale]

I hear you.
my own brother and myself got into an argument the other day with him
saying I need to get a job, damn near turned into a fight because of
some other things.
he has no clue that I have sent out over 10,000 resumes, that I
volunteer for the chamber of commerce, the keep america at work site,
the vets finding vets site and on top of that my small engine business
and automotive repair business.

To him, these things do not constitute a job.

perhaps in the past they wouldn't to me either.

but these last 8 years have made me realize that there are some things
more important then just a job

funny thing is, if he and others would quit badmouthing me about not
getting a job, I could most likely make a living doing what I'm doing
(thats one of the problems of living in a really small town)

one of the harsh realities I've realized lately, and others that have
written me about are that there appears to be 2 roadblocks at this point
in our lives:
1. you've made too much money in the past and you won't stay when things
pick back up so I can't hire you (says the low paying jobs), and
2. the jobs you've spent your life working at won't even interview you
if you don't have a degree.

problem with the degree option is that if you borrow the money to go to
college, there is no guarantee that will help you get a job either and
then you are still stuck paying for the student loans with no job in
site and believe me I know, because I owe citibank student loans and
sallie mae and have no money to pay them.

not whining, just stating the facts because people don't seem to
understand what really is happening.

I almost wrote an article the other day based on one I read where it
stated that if it were not for unemployment, this depression,recession,
whatever you want to call it would be much worse then the 1930's and yet
I hear from my friends that nobody should get unemployment.

Go figure <grin>


On 4/25/2010 10:35 AM, Pete Theisen wrote:
> Virgil Bierschwale wrote:
>
>> its about the same here in central texas jobs wise...
>>
> Hi Virgil,
>
> People who have worked all the way through this without significant loss
> of hours or rate reductions just have no idea. Can't tell them, either,
> they ask you if you are on drugs, then tell you to go find a better job.
>
>
>>>>>> We have been buying our own toilet paper here for over a year.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Wow. I'm fairly sure that sort of nonsense would be illegal here.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Get the heck out, Pete. Your stories are so heinous they border on
>>>> unbelievable. Are you sure you're not sampling the drugs? Seriously,
>>>> man, if it's that bad, you should have left by now.
>>>>
>
>>> There is nowhere to go. I am 65, diabetic, I have foot and back problems
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>> Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2834 - Release Date: 04/25/10 01:31:00
>>>
>>>

--
Virgil Bierschwale
Vets Finding Vets <http://www.VetsFindingVets.org>
Keep America At Work <http://www.KeepAmericaAtWork.com>


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[Pete Theisen]

Virgil Bierschwale wrote:
> I hear you.
> my own brother and myself got into an argument the other day with him
> saying I need to get a job, damn near turned into a fight because of
> some other things.
> he has no clue that I have sent out over 10,000 resumes, that I
> volunteer for the chamber of commerce, the keep america at work site,
> the vets finding vets site and on top of that my small engine business
> and automotive repair business.

Hi Virgil,

Even without the India and immigrant problem, automation and other
efficiencies have decimated the need for employees. What are people to
do, die because the rich folks don't need them any more?

Of course not. Government has to step in, because people have a right to
life even if the rich people don't want to pay for it. Socialism is here
to stay, at least in the form of "government jobs". The contest now is
between patronage - knowing somebody, or "civil service" - knowing
something, even if that something is useless.

Yes, and we have to start paying mothers to stay home with their kids,
common in Europe.
--
Regards,

Pete
http://pete-theisen.com/
http://elect-pete-theisen.com/

[Virgil Bierschwale]

I hear you.
I have a cousin i met through facebook that lives in germany.

he stated it best when he said that a person needs the basic dignity of
life by being able to provide a roof over their families heads and to
provide for the necessities without being forced to live in the slums
with all the druggies, thieves, etc...

Thats why my needs have changed so much lately.
I've found where I would like to retire at on this 4 1/2 acres for
40,000, but I can't even figure out how to pay for it yet, and I believe
i've worked out a solution with the irs and child support, so if I could
make a steady 750 to 1,000 per week, I could live here and maybe even
prosper over time.

But so far I haven't figured out how to do that, but hey, i'm a
persistent sob and I might just make it one of these days.

On 4/25/2010 11:22 AM, Pete Theisen wrote:
> Virgil Bierschwale wrote:
>
>> I hear you.
>> my own brother and myself got into an argument the other day with him
>> saying I need to get a job, damn near turned into a fight because of
>> some other things.
>> he has no clue that I have sent out over 10,000 resumes, that I
>> volunteer for the chamber of commerce, the keep america at work site,
>> the vets finding vets site and on top of that my small engine business
>> and automotive repair business.
>>
> Hi Virgil,
>
> Even without the India and immigrant problem, automation and other
> efficiencies have decimated the need for employees. What are people to
> do, die because the rich folks don't need them any more?
>
> Of course not. Government has to step in, because people have a right to
> life even if the rich people don't want to pay for it. Socialism is here
> to stay, at least in the form of "government jobs". The contest now is
> between patronage - knowing somebody, or "civil service" - knowing
> something, even if that something is useless.
>
> Yes, and we have to start paying mothers to stay home with their kids,
> common in Europe.
>
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2834 - Release Date: 04/25/10 01:31:00
>
>

--
Virgil Bierschwale
Vets Finding Vets <http://www.VetsFindingVets.org>
Keep America At Work <http://www.KeepAmericaAtWork.com>


--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
multipart/alternative
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text/html
---

[Pete Theisen]

Virgil Bierschwale wrote:
> I hear you.
> I have a cousin i met through facebook that lives in germany.
>
> he stated it best when he said that a person needs the basic dignity of
> life by being able to provide a roof over their families heads and to
> provide for the necessities without being forced to live in the slums
> with all the druggies, thieves, etc...
>
> Thats why my needs have changed so much lately.
> I've found where I would like to retire at on this 4 1/2 acres for
> 40,000, but I can't even figure out how to pay for it yet, and I believe
> i've worked out a solution with the irs and child support, so if I could
> make a steady 750 to 1,000 per week

Hi Virgil,

Well, if that's *all* you need . . .

Cozy up to the Obama guy, then. I am sure there is room for one more in
the administration. You won't have to actually do anything. Best, in
fact, that you do nothing.
--
Regards,

Pete
http://pete-theisen.com/
http://elect-pete-theisen.com/

[Nicholas Geti]

Yeah. Get a job in the SEC or attorney general's office. They watch porn all
day according to the latest Congressional hearings.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Pete Theisen" <***@verizon.net>
To: "ProFox Email List" <***@leafe.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Open source updates cost TIME instead of $$$


> Virgil Bierschwale wrote:
>> I hear you.
>> I have a cousin i met through facebook that lives in germany.
>>
>> he stated it best when he said that a person needs the basic dignity of
>> life by being able to provide a roof over their families heads and to
>> provide for the necessities without being forced to live in the slums
>> with all the druggies, thieves, etc...
>>
>> Thats why my needs have changed so much lately.
>> I've found where I would like to retire at on this 4 1/2 acres for
>> 40,000, but I can't even figure out how to pay for it yet, and I believe
>> i've worked out a solution with the irs and child support, so if I could
>> make a steady 750 to 1,000 per week
>
> Hi Virgil,
>
> Well, if that's *all* you need . . .
>
> Cozy up to the Obama guy, then. I am sure there is room for one more in
> the administration. You won't have to actually do anything. Best, in
> fact, that you do nothing.
> --
> Regards,
>
> Pete
> http://pete-theisen.com/
> http://elect-pete-theisen.com/
>
[excessive quoting removed by server]

[Virgil Bierschwale]

ain't that something.
I've written the SEC many times trying to get them to have the
corporations quantify their payroll numbers on their quarterly and
annual reports.

Now I know why they never answered.


On 4/26/2010 2:34 PM, Nicholas Geti wrote:
> Yeah. Get a job in the SEC or attorney general's office. They watch porn all
> day according to the latest Congressional hearings.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Pete Theisen"<***@verizon.net>
> To: "ProFox Email List"<***@leafe.com>
> Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 12:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Open source updates cost TIME instead of $$$
>
>
>
>> Virgil Bierschwale wrote:
>>
>>> I hear you.
>>> I have a cousin i met through facebook that lives in germany.
>>>
>>> he stated it best when he said that a person needs the basic dignity of
>>> life by being able to provide a roof over their families heads and to
>>> provide for the necessities without being forced to live in the slums
>>> with all the druggies, thieves, etc...
>>>
>>> Thats why my needs have changed so much lately.
>>> I've found where I would like to retire at on this 4 1/2 acres for
>>> 40,000, but I can't even figure out how to pay for it yet, and I believe
>>> i've worked out a solution with the irs and child support, so if I could
>>> make a steady 750 to 1,000 per week
>>>
>> Hi Virgil,
>>
>> Well, if that's *all* you need . . .
>>
>> Cozy up to the Obama guy, then. I am sure there is room for one more in
>> the administration. You won't have to actually do anything. Best, in
>> fact, that you do nothing.
>> --
>> Regards,
>>
>> Pete
>> http://pete-theisen.com/
>> http://elect-pete-theisen.com/
>>
>>
[excessive quoting removed by server]

[Michael Madigan]

LOL

--- On Mon, 4/26/10, Nicholas Geti <***@optonline.net> wrote:

> From: Nicholas Geti <***@optonline.net>
> Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Open source updates cost TIME instead of $$$
> To: "ProFox Email List" <***@leafe.com>
> Date: Monday, April 26, 2010, 3:34 PM
> Yeah. Get a job in the SEC or
> attorney general's office. They watch porn all
> day according to the latest Congressional hearings.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Pete Theisen" <***@verizon.net>
> To: "ProFox Email List" <***@leafe.com>
> Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 12:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Open source updates cost TIME instead
> of $$$
>
>
> > Virgil Bierschwale wrote:
> >> I hear you.
> >> I have a cousin i met through facebook that lives
> in germany.
> >>
> >> he stated it best when he said that a person needs
> the basic dignity of
> >> life by being able to provide a roof over their
> families heads and to
> >> provide for the necessities without being forced
> to live in the slums
> >> with all the druggies, thieves, etc...
> >>
> >> Thats why my needs have changed so much lately.
> >> I've found where I would like to retire at on this
> 4 1/2 acres for
> >> 40,000, but I can't even figure out how to pay for
> it yet, and I believe
> >> i've worked out a solution with the irs and child
> support, so if I could
> >> make a steady 750 to 1,000 per week
> >
> > Hi Virgil,
> >
> > Well, if that's *all* you need . . .
> >
> > Cozy up to the Obama guy, then. I am sure there is
> room for one more in
> > the administration. You won't have to actually do
> anything. Best, in
> > fact, that you do nothing.
> > --
> > Regards,
> >
> > Pete
> > http://pete-theisen.com/
> > http://elect-pete-theisen.com/
> >
[excessive quoting removed by server]

[Ricardo Aráoz]

Virgil Bierschwale wrote:
> I hear you.
> I have a cousin i met through facebook that lives in germany.
>
> he stated it best when he said that a person needs the basic dignity of
> life by being able to provide a roof over their families heads and to
> provide for the necessities without being forced to live in the slums
> with all the druggies, thieves, etc...
>

Are you getting socialist on me?

Don't worry, it usually happens to right wingers when their luck run out.
Same thing happens to left wingers when they get lucky, they suddenly
say the left was a youth thing and now they've got some experience in
life they turn right.

[Virgil Bierschwale]

doubt I would ever consider that...
I just believe in people and that good people will triumph, although
right this minute it looks like the bad ones have them down and kicking
the crap out of the good ones..


On 4/25/2010 1:38 PM, Ricardo Aráoz wrote:
> Virgil Bierschwale wrote:
>
>> I hear you.
>> I have a cousin i met through facebook that lives in germany.
>>
>> he stated it best when he said that a person needs the basic dignity of
>> life by being able to provide a roof over their families heads and to
>> provide for the necessities without being forced to live in the slums
>> with all the druggies, thieves, etc...
>>
>>
> Are you getting socialist on me?
>
> Don't worry, it usually happens to right wingers when their luck run out.
> Same thing happens to left wingers when they get lucky, they suddenly
> say the left was a youth thing and now they've got some experience in
> life they turn right.
>
>
[excessive quoting removed by server]

[Jeff Johnson]

On 4/25/2010 8:35 AM, Pete Theisen wrote:
> Virgil Bierschwale wrote:
>> its about the same here in central texas jobs wise...
>
> Hi Virgil,
>
> People who have worked all the way through this without significant loss
> of hours or rate reductions just have no idea. Can't tell them, either,
> they ask you if you are on drugs, then tell you to go find a better job.
>
>>>>>> We have been buying our own toilet paper here for over a year.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Wow. I'm fairly sure that sort of nonsense would be illegal here.
>>>>>
>>>> Get the heck out, Pete. Your stories are so heinous they border on
>>>> unbelievable. Are you sure you're not sampling the drugs? Seriously,
>>>> man, if it's that bad, you should have left by now.
>
>>> There is nowhere to go. I am 65, diabetic, I have foot and back problems

My wife was an account manager for a hosting company as well as worked
on websites. She lost her job after 12 years three months ago. She has
sent out over 300 resumes & applications and has had four interviews.
There is a ton of scamming going on which makes matters worse. She has
also gone to a lot of places in person.

You're exactly right. Unless you're living it you wouldn't understand.

Jeff

Jeff Johnson
***@san-dc.com
SanDC, Inc.
623-582-0323
Fax [phone]

http://www.VetsFindingVets.org

[Virgil Bierschwale]

I look back at what i was going through in 2003 & 4 when I thought it
was me and now I realize that I was just at the tip of the iceberg, or
the beginning of this mess, however you want to look at it.


On 4/25/2010 12:20 PM, Jeff Johnson wrote:
> On 4/25/2010 8:35 AM, Pete Theisen wrote:
>
>> Virgil Bierschwale wrote:
>>
>>> its about the same here in central texas jobs wise...
>>>
>> Hi Virgil,
>>
>> People who have worked all the way through this without significant loss
>> of hours or rate reductions just have no idea. Can't tell them, either,
>> they ask you if you are on drugs, then tell you to go find a better job.
>>
>>
>>>>>>> We have been buying our own toilet paper here for over a year.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wow. I'm fairly sure that sort of nonsense would be illegal here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Get the heck out, Pete. Your stories are so heinous they border on
>>>>> unbelievable. Are you sure you're not sampling the drugs? Seriously,
>>>>> man, if it's that bad, you should have left by now.
>>>>>
>>
>>>> There is nowhere to go. I am 65, diabetic, I have foot and back problems
>>>>
> My wife was an account manager for a hosting company as well as worked
> on websites. She lost her job after 12 years three months ago. She has
> sent out over 300 resumes& applications and has had four interviews.
> There is a ton of scamming going on which makes matters worse. She has
> also gone to a lot of places in person.
>
> You're exactly right. Unless you're living it you wouldn't understand.
>
> Jeff
>
> Jeff Johnson
> ***@san-dc.com
> SanDC, Inc.
> 623-582-0323
> Fax [phone]
>
> http://www.VetsFindingVets.org
>
>
[excessive quoting removed by server]

[MB Software Solutions, LLC]

Jeff Johnson wrote:
>>>> There is nowhere to go. I am 65, diabetic, I have foot and back problems
>
> My wife was an account manager for a hosting company as well as worked
> on websites. She lost her job after 12 years three months ago. She has
> sent out over 300 resumes & applications and has had four interviews.
> There is a ton of scamming going on which makes matters worse. She has
> also gone to a lot of places in person.
>
> You're exactly right. Unless you're living it you wouldn't understand.


Man, that totally sucks. Sorry for you both. I need to appreciate what
I've got moreso.

--
Mike Babcock, MCP
MB Software Solutions, LLC
President, Chief Software Architect
http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com
http://fabmate.com
http://twitter.com/mbabcock16

[Pete Theisen]

MB Software Solutions, LLC wrote:
> Jeff Johnson wrote:
>>>>> There is nowhere to go. I am 65, diabetic, I have foot and back problems

>> My wife was an account manager for a hosting company as well as worked
>> on websites. She lost her job after 12 years three months ago. She has
>> sent out over 300 resumes & applications and has had four interviews.
>> There is a ton of scamming going on which makes matters worse. She has
>> also gone to a lot of places in person.
>>
>> You're exactly right. Unless you're living it you wouldn't understand.
>
> Man, that totally sucks. Sorry for you both. I need to appreciate what
> I've got moreso.

Hi Michael,

When you turn 65 "they" take over a hundred dollars out of your check
for "Medicare". When they started that I pointed out that my $900 a
month was already $100 short of a reasonable budget, and it is.

Their response? "Just go to a food bank". Well, I am diabetic. The food
bank gives you pasta, bread, sugared stuff and canned beans. Exactly
what I need to right quick get to where Kristyne is. Heaven, presumably.

HOWEVER, there is one food bank at a Presbyterian Church that gives you
something else. In each bag of food there is a roll of institutional
toilet paper. Just that little extra folksiness.

:-)

--
Regards,

Pete
http://pete-theisen.com/
http://elect-pete-theisen.com/

[Allen]

You guys are painting a bleak picture of life in the US. Sounds more like
the 1800's than 21st century. I also know others in the US in similar
circumstances so I am sure you are not making it up. Scary that you have to
go looking for food in a church. For me especially as I'm a realist.
But what's more worrying is its computer programmers, or at least FoxPro. Is
there anyone making a living out of FoxPro over there.
Al

-----Original Message-----
From: profoxtech-***@leafe.com [mailto:profoxtech-***@leafe.com] On

Hi Michael,

HOWEVER, there is one food bank at a Presbyterian Church that gives you
something else. In each bag of food there is a roll of institutional
toilet paper. Just that little extra folksiness.

[Virgil Bierschwale]

no idea on the foxpro portion, but here is an article I wrote awhile
back showing the programming numbers are now back at 1995 levels

http://keepamericaatwork.com/?p=8441


On 4/26/2010 1:17 AM, Allen wrote:
> You guys are painting a bleak picture of life in the US. Sounds more like
> the 1800's than 21st century. I also know others in the US in similar
> circumstances so I am sure you are not making it up. Scary that you have to
> go looking for food in a church. For me especially as I'm a realist.
> But what's more worrying is its computer programmers, or at least FoxPro. Is
> there anyone making a living out of FoxPro over there.
> Al
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: profoxtech-***@leafe.com [mailto:profoxtech-***@leafe.com] On
>
> Hi Michael,
>
> HOWEVER, there is one food bank at a Presbyterian Church that gives you
> something else. In each bag of food there is a roll of institutional
> toilet paper. Just that little extra folksiness.
>
>
>
[excessive quoting removed by server]

[Ted Roche]

On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 2:17 AM, Allen <***@gatwicksoftware.com> wrote:

> But what's more worrying is its computer programmers, or at least FoxPro. Is
> there anyone making a living out of FoxPro over there.

Funny forum to be asking that question.

There's lots of folks fully employed at the monthly Python and Ruby
meetings I attend, so I'd say "Yes."

--
Ted Roche
Ted Roche & Associates, LLC
http://www.tedroche.com

[Allen]

Well no its not. I asked about Foxpro and making a living not monty python
lol. I asked because I know some here are ex foxpro but hang about. Even Ed
is ex foxpro and he runs the list
Al

-----Original Message-----
From: profoxtech-***@leafe.com [mailto:profoxtech-***@leafe.com] On
Behalf Of Ted Roche
Sent: 26 April 2010 14:26
To: ***@leafe.com
Subject: Re: Open source updates cost TIME instead of $$$

On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 2:17 AM, Allen <***@gatwicksoftware.com> wrote:

> But what's more worrying is its computer programmers, or at least FoxPro.
Is
> there anyone making a living out of FoxPro over there.

Funny forum to be asking that question.

There's lots of folks fully employed at the monthly Python and Ruby
meetings I attend, so I'd say "Yes."

[Jeff Johnson]

On 4/26/2010 11:32 AM, Allen wrote:
> Well no its not. I asked about Foxpro and making a living not monty python
> lol. I asked because I know some here are ex foxpro but hang about. Even Ed
> is ex foxpro and he runs the list
> Al
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: profoxtech-***@leafe.com [mailto:profoxtech-***@leafe.com] On
> Behalf Of Ted Roche
> Sent: 26 April 2010 14:26
> To: ***@leafe.com
> Subject: Re: Open source updates cost TIME instead of $$$
>
> On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 2:17 AM, Allen<***@gatwicksoftware.com> wrote:
>
>> But what's more worrying is its computer programmers, or at least FoxPro.
> Is
>> there anyone making a living out of FoxPro over there.
>
> Funny forum to be asking that question.
>
> There's lots of folks fully employed at the monthly Python and Ruby
> meetings I attend, so I'd say "Yes."
>

I make a good living with FoxPro. My customers are not concerned about
what tool I use, but rather can I keep up with Windows NT, 2000, XP,
Vista, Windows 7 and run on terminal services - which I have been able
to do with VFP. They are only interested in what my applications do.

I am learning Dabo and Python and am in the process of developing
applications with them. But I will continue to support my VFP
applications for the foreseeable future.

Jeff

Jeff Johnson
***@san-dc.com
SanDC, Inc.
623-582-0323
Fax [phone]

http://www.VetsFindingVets.org

[Virgil Bierschwale]

Good for you.
I would like to get something going again, but around here even if I
quote 15 per hr that is considered too much..

Long live foxpro in my opinion because I haven't seen anything out there
that will give the non-IT dept the ability to develop solutions for
their dept that the IT people are too busy to do.

On 4/26/2010 2:48 PM, Jeff Johnson wrote:
> On 4/26/2010 11:32 AM, Allen wrote:
>
>> Well no its not. I asked about Foxpro and making a living not monty python
>> lol. I asked because I know some here are ex foxpro but hang about. Even Ed
>> is ex foxpro and he runs the list
>> Al
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: profoxtech-***@leafe.com [mailto:profoxtech-***@leafe.com] On
>> Behalf Of Ted Roche
>> Sent: 26 April 2010 14:26
>> To: ***@leafe.com
>> Subject: Re: Open source updates cost TIME instead of $$$
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 2:17 AM, Allen<***@gatwicksoftware.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> But what's more worrying is its computer programmers, or at least FoxPro.
>>>
>> Is
>>
>>> there anyone making a living out of FoxPro over there.
>>>
>> Funny forum to be asking that question.
>>
>> There's lots of folks fully employed at the monthly Python and Ruby
>> meetings I attend, so I'd say "Yes."
>>
>>
> I make a good living with FoxPro. My customers are not concerned about
> what tool I use, but rather can I keep up with Windows NT, 2000, XP,
> Vista, Windows 7 and run on terminal services - which I have been able
> to do with VFP. They are only interested in what my applications do.
>
> I am learning Dabo and Python and am in the process of developing
> applications with them. But I will continue to support my VFP
> applications for the foreseeable future.
>
> Jeff
>
> Jeff Johnson
> ***@san-dc.com
> SanDC, Inc.
> 623-582-0323
> Fax [phone]
>
> http://www.VetsFindingVets.org
>
[excessive quoting removed by server]

[Alan Bourke]

What we see happening sometimes is that if a company has an internal IT
department and they're evaluating solutions of which ours is one, the IT
people will get onto Google and from there establish that VFP is 'dead'.
So we do lose out in those terms sometimes. But the vast majority of
companies we sell to don't ask or if they do, don't care.

One of the main objections customers have is the DBF format, and I agree
that it is getting increasingly flaky in terms of locking and file
access contention as Windows progresses. In fact a time will come when
having shared VFP data on a Linux box and using Samba may well work
better in all cases than having it on a Windows box (I know Ted(?) and
Paul and others would say that's already the case).

Having said that there is still huge scope for applications with a VFP
front end and a separate database server backend (Postgres, MSSQL et al)

--
Alan Bourke
alanpbourke (at) fastmail (dot) fm

[Jean Laeremans]

On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Alan Bourke <***@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
>. In fact a time will come when having shared VFP data on a Linux box and using Samba may well work better in all cases than having it on a Windows box

That's what i do. Works fine.

A+
jml

[Paul McNett]

On 4/27/10 2:07 AM, Jean Laeremans wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Alan Bourke<***@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>>
>> . In fact a time will come when having shared VFP data on a Linux box and using Samba may well work better in all cases than having it on a Windows box
>
> That's what i do. Works fine.

It's worked better to host DBF's on Linux using Samba since at least NT4 days.

But that's just a band-aid for what's really needed: migrating the DBF to some sort
of database server.

Paul

[Ted Roche]

On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 4:20 AM, Alan Bourke <***@fastmail.fm> wrote:

> In fact a time will come when
> having shared VFP data on a Linux box and using Samba may well work
> better in all cases than having it on a Windows box (I know Ted(?) and
> Paul and others would say that's already the case).

Yes.

I have clients with Linux machines with uptimes in the hundreds of
days. The Samba protocol is completely configurable. There's no
worries that a proprietary server OS upgrade causes older clients to
no longer be able to connect. The server is immune to the omnipresent
Windows malware. The SMB server can be configured to the level of
security and model (workgroup, domain, Active Directory) that's
appropriate for the client, not at the discretion of the vendor.

The server has secure remote access (OpenSSH) that doesn't require
client access licenses. The server comes with a robust two-way
firewall.

What's not to like?

--
Ted Roche
Ted Roche & Associates, LLC
http://www.tedroche.com

[Stephen Russell]

On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 3:20 AM, Alan Bourke <***@fastmail.fm> wrote:

> Having said that there is still huge scope for applications with a VFP
> front end and a separate database server backend (Postgres, MSSQL et al)
-----------------

Only way to present solutions. Allow the client to have their
database and you just interact with that. This allows choice to the
client as well as security. It also gives you the developer a more
flexible presentation if they do have a an IT staff.


--
Stephen Russell

Sr. Production Systems Programmer
CIMSgts

901.246-0159 cell

[MB Software Solutions, LLC]

Alan Bourke wrote:
>
>
> What we see happening sometimes is that if a company has an internal IT
> department and they're evaluating solutions of which ours is one, the IT
> people will get onto Google and from there establish that VFP is 'dead'.
> So we do lose out in those terms sometimes. But the vast majority of
> companies we sell to don't ask or if they do, don't care.
>
> One of the main objections customers have is the DBF format, and I agree
> that it is getting increasingly flaky in terms of locking and file
> access contention as Windows progresses. In fact a time will come when
> having shared VFP data on a Linux box and using Samba may well work
> better in all cases than having it on a Windows box (I know Ted(?) and
> Paul and others would say that's already the case).
>
> Having said that there is still huge scope for applications with a VFP
> front end and a separate database server backend (Postgres, MSSQL et al)
>


I switched over to MySQL years ago (2005?) and have been loving that
much moreso as a backend to my VFP apps. DBFs are ok, but not as
portable and professionally recognized as a MySQL database would be.

--
Mike Babcock, MCP
MB Software Solutions, LLC
President, Chief Software Architect
http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com
http://fabmate.com
http://twitter.com/mbabcock16

[Stephen Russell]

On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 12:04 PM, MB Software Solutions, LLC
<***@mbsoftwaresolutions.com> wrote:
> Alan Bourke wrote:
>>
>>
>> What we see happening sometimes is that if a company has an internal IT
>> department and they're evaluating solutions of which ours is one, the IT
>> people will get onto Google and from there establish that VFP is 'dead'.
>> So we do lose out in those terms sometimes. But the vast majority of
>> companies we sell to don't ask or if they do, don't care.
>>
>> One of the main objections customers have is the DBF format, and I agree
>> that it is getting increasingly flaky in terms of locking and file
>> access contention as Windows progresses. In fact a time will come when
>> having shared VFP data on a Linux box and using Samba may well work
>> better in all cases than having it on a Windows box (I know Ted(?) and
>> Paul and others would say that's already the case).
>>
>> Having said that there is still huge scope for applications with a VFP
>> front end and a separate database server backend (Postgres, MSSQL et al)
>>
>
>
> I switched over to MySQL years ago (2005?) and have been loving that
> much moreso as a backend to my VFP apps.  DBFs are ok, but not as
> portable and professionally recognized as a MySQL database would be.
-------------------------

I started using the connectivity kit from M$ with FPW2.5 never looked
back. It was easy to complain about customers not having proper power
protection and having memo files hosed. It was harder to fix the
cheap ones who didn't pay for the right hardware.

That first db was home grown from the company that sold the app. It
had a driver for it and I learned how to put it all together. Ran on
a SCO dual processor 386 as I remember.

Got a model of the db and printed it for my office wall, it was pretty
big. A month later my boss storms into my space and demands to know
what it is. :) I tell him and get brought into his office. He gets
on the phone with the vendor demanding to know why they lied to him on
getting a model. They say they don't have one. He takes some
polorids of my wall and faxes a copy of them back to the vendor.
Those were the days!

DBFs have no security as my first problem with them. They are
independent files that work together. Before the dbc there was no
overall control of the mess. The dbc was just meta data of the mess
and if hosed it all was hosed. Last complaint was backup and
restoration of data as well as a log of changes since last backup.
All the reasons why I didn't look back to dbfs when I got working with
better technology.


--
Stephen Russell

Sr. Production Systems Programmer
CIMSgts

901.246-0159 cell

[Jeff Johnson]

On 4/27/2010 1:20 AM, Alan Bourke wrote:
> One of the main objections customers have is the DBF format, and I agree
> that it is getting increasingly flaky in terms of locking and file
> access contention as Windows progresses. In fact a time will come when
> having shared VFP data on a Linux box and using Samba may well work
> better in all cases than having it on a Windows box (I know Ted(?) and
> Paul and others would say that's already the case).
>
> Having said that there is still huge scope for applications with a VFP
> front end and a separate database server backend (Postgres, MSSQL et al)
>

My experience is that with XP+ and terminal services the dbfs are pretty
solid.

I know Paul wrote a paper on using Postgres with VFP but I would be
interested in hearing how many of you are using PostgreSQL as a backend.
From my angle it appears to be the way I want to go.

Jeff

Jeff Johnson
***@san-dc.com
SanDC, Inc.
623-582-0323
Fax [phone]

http://www.VetsFindingVets.org

[Jarvis, Matthew]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: profoxtech-***@leafe.com
[mailto:profoxtech-***@leafe.com]
> On Behalf Of Jeff Johnson
> Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 10:27 AM
> To: ***@leafe.com
> Subject: Re: Open source updates cost TIME instead of $$$
>
> I know Paul wrote a paper on using Postgres with VFP but I would be
> interested in hearing how many of you are using PostgreSQL as a
backend.
> From my angle it appears to be the way I want to go.
>

I used PostgreSQL at my gig before last.... Used MS Access as the front
end (had to) and, at least the data part, it was rock solid.

Thanks,

Matthew Jarvis || Business Systems Analyst
IT Department
McKenzie-Willamette Medical Center
1460 G Street, Springfield, OR 97477 || Ph: 541-744-6092 || Fax:
541-744-6145

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: This electronic message may contain information that is
Proprietary, Confidential, or legally privileged or protected. It
is intended only for the use of the individual(s) and entity named
in the message. If you are not an intended recipient of this
message, please notify the sender immediately and delete the
material from your computer. Do not deliver, distribute or copy
this message and do not disclose its contents or take any action in
reliance on the information it contains.

[Steve Ellenoff]

I've been using it and the experience has been fantastic. It's been
rock solid in the 1.5 years it's been running for my customer.

At 01:27 PM 04/27/2010, you wrote:
>On 4/27/2010 1:20 AM, Alan Bourke wrote:
> > One of the main objections customers have is the DBF format, and I agree
> > that it is getting increasingly flaky in terms of locking and file
> > access contention as Windows progresses. In fact a time will come when
> > having shared VFP data on a Linux box and using Samba may well work
> > better in all cases than having it on a Windows box (I know Ted(?) and
> > Paul and others would say that's already the case).
> >
> > Having said that there is still huge scope for applications with a VFP
> > front end and a separate database server backend (Postgres, MSSQL et al)
> >
>
>My experience is that with XP+ and terminal services the dbfs are pretty
>solid.
>
>I know Paul wrote a paper on using Postgres with VFP but I would be
>interested in hearing how many of you are using PostgreSQL as a backend.
> From my angle it appears to be the way I want to go.
>
>Jeff
>
>Jeff Johnson
>***@san-dc.com
>SanDC, Inc.
>623-582-0323
>Fax [phone]
>
>http://www.VetsFindingVets.org
>
>
[excessive quoting removed by server]

[Paul McNett]

On 4/27/10 10:27 AM, Jeff Johnson wrote:
> I know Paul wrote a paper on using Postgres with VFP but I would be
> interested in hearing how many of you are using PostgreSQL as a backend.
> From my angle it appears to be the way I want to go.

For the record, I never wrote a paper on using Postgres with VFP. Perhaps a different
Paul?

Paul

[Jeff Johnson]

On 4/27/2010 10:44 AM, Paul McNett wrote:
> On 4/27/10 10:27 AM, Jeff Johnson wrote:
>> I know Paul wrote a paper on using Postgres with VFP but I would be
>> interested in hearing how many of you are using PostgreSQL as a backend.
>> From my angle it appears to be the way I want to go.
>
> For the record, I never wrote a paper on using Postgres with VFP. Perhaps a different
> Paul?
>
> Paul
>

I remember it was you and now I can't find the article. Sorry Paul
NotMcNett! ;^)


Jeff

Jeff Johnson
***@san-dc.com
SanDC, Inc.
623-582-0323
Fax [phone]

http://www.VetsFindingVets.org

[Paul McNett]

On 4/21/10 3:21 PM, MB Software Solutions, LLC wrote:
> Ed Leafe wrote:
>> You remind me of the people who ran into a VFP app written by a piss-poor developer, and then declares that all VFP apps are crap.
>
>
> Unfortunately, there are tons of people like that. That really seems to
> have hurt VFP's image, imo.

We had something special back then, when ordinary everyday folk could come out of the
trenches and develop a software solution to a business problem by using Fox. Sure, it
was hard for them, but the software made it possible. And maybe, just maybe, that
ordinary person from the trenches began to learn the ropes of software engineering.

And it fueled various tiers of economics. People like Ed, advanced in software design
with VFP, could come in and take that software to the next level, a level where it
could be maintained and enhanced into the foreseeable future.

The companies benefited from the start, because they got working prototypes created
by already-on-the-payroll staff, and once they saw the potential payback they could
hire the consultants to bring it home.

These days, it seems that the cost of custom software development, especially for
small business, is just too high. We need better ways for non-software developers to
provide working solutions for their companies, just like FoxPro originally allowed.

Paul

[Virgil Bierschwale]

amen, and less people calling them crappy software developers.

everybody, no matter how talented they may be now started out not
knowing a thing.
If they were fortunate, they found a mentor that took them under their wing.
If not, they learned what works by making mistakes and finding out what
doesn't work.

This is something we need to find a way to bring back to america.
This spirit of "I can do it".
Not the "I can't do it because I don't have a degree, or training, or ???"


On 4/23/2010 12:07 PM, Paul McNett wrote:
> On 4/21/10 3:21 PM, MB Software Solutions, LLC wrote:
>
>> Ed Leafe wrote:
>>
>>> You remind me of the people who ran into a VFP app written by a piss-poor developer, and then declares that all VFP apps are crap.
>>>
>>
>> Unfortunately, there are tons of people like that. That really seems to
>> have hurt VFP's image, imo.
>>
> We had something special back then, when ordinary everyday folk could come out of the
> trenches and develop a software solution to a business problem by using Fox. Sure, it
> was hard for them, but the software made it possible. And maybe, just maybe, that
> ordinary person from the trenches began to learn the ropes of software engineering.
>
> And it fueled various tiers of economics. People like Ed, advanced in software design
> with VFP, could come in and take that software to the next level, a level where it
> could be maintained and enhanced into the foreseeable future.
>
> The companies benefited from the start, because they got working prototypes created
> by already-on-the-payroll staff, and once they saw the potential payback they could
> hire the consultants to bring it home.
>
> These days, it seems that the cost of custom software development, especially for
> small business, is just too high. We need better ways for non-software developers to
> provide working solutions for their companies, just like FoxPro originally allowed.
>
> Paul
>
[excessive quoting removed by server]

[Paul McNett]

On 4/23/10 11:09 AM, Virgil Bierschwale wrote:
> amen, and less people calling them crappy software developers.

Yeah, calling people's productions crap isn't too constructive, is it?

> everybody, no matter how talented they may be now started out not
> knowing a thing.
> If they were fortunate, they found a mentor that took them under their wing.
> If not, they learned what works by making mistakes and finding out what
> doesn't work.

No matter what, you have to explore and make many mistakes before finding your way
and building your own personal toolkit.

> This is something we need to find a way to bring back to america.
> This spirit of "I can do it".
> Not the "I can't do it because I don't have a degree, or training, or ???"

I think that spirit is still there and strong, but tamed by mass media[1], the new
opiate of the masses.


[1] most certainly includes social networking.

Paul

[MB Software Solutions, LLC]

(Referring to your subject line) I thought time IS money? <gd&r>

[Jeff Johnson]

On 4/21/2010 11:36 AM, Stephen Russell wrote:
> I have to not laugh when I see the frustration on their faces. I have
> brought over programmer candy twice, Advill is you didn't know the
> joke.
>
> They are trying very hard, they are pretty smart people up against a
> multitude of product versions and updates that all have to be
> installed a specific way. I lived this same level of bull shit when I
> thought that I would boot Linux and vbox Win7. What a load of crap
> that was. The straw that broke that back was an update to Ubuntu 9.10
> and the vbox failed. That was it I had wasted way to many hours for 0
> value. Well I did love the Frustration and yes that was free.

I am familiar with a large corporation using Vista on the clients and
Microsoft on the servers and they pushed an update to their network on
Sunday and none of the 36,000 employees' payroll processed on Monday.
No errors just nothing appeared in the "done" folder. It took them
about 7 hours to undo the update and all of the payroll had to be
resubmitted.

I guess "YMMV" applies here.

Jeff

Jeff Johnson
***@san-dc.com
SanDC, Inc.
623-582-0323
Fax [phone]

[Stephen Russell]

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 2:16 PM, Jeff Johnson <***@san-dc.com> wrote:

> I am familiar with a large corporation using Vista on the clients and
> Microsoft on the servers and they pushed an update to their network on
> Sunday and none of the 36,000 employees' payroll processed on Monday.
> No errors just nothing appeared in the "done" folder.  It took them
> about 7 hours to undo the update and all of the payroll had to be
> resubmitted.
>
> I guess "YMMV" applies here.
-------------------------

Well Forest Gump coined that phrase "Stupid is as stupid does" If you
don't test an update before a roll out and shit hits the fan. You
have to clean it up.

In the end what was the culprit? Security settings change on a group?

--
Stephen Russell

Sr. Production Systems Programmer
CIMSgts

901.246-0159 cell

[Jeff Johnson]

On 4/21/2010 12:27 PM, Stephen Russell wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 2:16 PM, Jeff Johnson<***@san-dc.com> wrote:
>
>> I am familiar with a large corporation using Vista on the clients and
>> Microsoft on the servers and they pushed an update to their network on
>> Sunday and none of the 36,000 employees' payroll processed on Monday.
>> No errors just nothing appeared in the "done" folder. It took them
>> about 7 hours to undo the update and all of the payroll had to be
>> resubmitted.
>>
>> I guess "YMMV" applies here.
> -------------------------
>
> Well Forest Gump coined that phrase "Stupid is as stupid does" If you
> don't test an update before a roll out and shit hits the fan. You
> have to clean it up.
>
> In the end what was the culprit? Security settings change on a group?
>

That's kind of the point Steve. It's the people driving the bus.
Microsoft obviously makes excellent products. So does Ubuntu, Linux and
Mac. A developer can screw up any of them.

The same company got the active directory messed up and all of the users
lost their permissions. We had to request them for everyone.

As for your Ubuntu experience, mine is considerably different. I love
it and am moving toward using it for my main machine. My wife - used to
pick on me for my move to Linux as she worked for a Microsoft shop -
loves her mac now.

My brother the preacher has never used anything but a mac and has words
reserved for our dad's windows machine. ;^)

Jeff

Jeff Johnson
***@san-dc.com
SanDC, Inc.
623-582-0323
Fax [phone]

[Stephen Russell]

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 2:58 PM, Jeff Johnson <***@san-dc.com> wrote:
> On 4/21/2010 12:27 PM, Stephen Russell wrote:
>> On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 2:16 PM, Jeff Johnson<***@san-dc.com>  wrote:
>>
>>> I am familiar with a large corporation using Vista on the clients and
>>> Microsoft on the servers and they pushed an update to their network on
>>> Sunday and none of the 36,000 employees' payroll processed on Monday.
>>> No errors just nothing appeared in the "done" folder.  It took them
>>> about 7 hours to undo the update and all of the payroll had to be
>>> resubmitted.
>>>
>>> I guess "YMMV" applies here.
>> -------------------------
>>
>> Well Forest Gump coined that phrase "Stupid is as stupid does"  If you
>> don't test an update before a roll out and shit hits the fan.  You
>> have to clean it up.
>>
>> In the end what was the culprit?  Security settings change on a group?
>>
>
> That's kind of the point Steve.  It's the people driving the bus.
> Microsoft obviously makes excellent products.  So does Ubuntu, Linux and
> Mac.  A developer can screw up any of them.
------------------

Yep. Risk & reward.

> The same company got the active directory messed up and all of the users
> lost their permissions.  We had to request them for everyone.
----------------------

Must have sucked for dudes in AD side of house.

It was not a corruption of application from the update, just the AD.
Proving that your software is still fine and that the problem is in
rights is always a RPITA.


> As for your Ubuntu experience, mine is considerably different.  I love
> it and am moving toward using it for my main machine.  My wife - used to
> pick on me for my move to Linux as she worked for a Microsoft shop -
> loves her mac now.
--------------------------------

I gave it a shot and still have a 50 gig partition to consider a dual
boot. That space is just empty right now.


> My brother the preacher has never used anything but a mac and has words
> reserved for our dad's windows machine.   ;^)
----------------

I guess he was just a one button guy. ;->

--
Stephen Russell

Sr. Production Systems Programmer
CIMSgts

901.246-0159 cell

[Steve Ellenoff]

Maybe I was just not lucky, but my experiences with Ubuntu were
pretty bad ( this was in 2008 ). Overall it worked just fine except
that wireless networking would simply not work. I wasted several days
of hair pulling and stress reading, researching and trying everything
I could to get it to work, but it simply would not. I even tried
several different wireless devices to see if it was a hardware
compatibility issue.

At this point I was ready to give up, but the project I was working
on required Linux so I forked over I think it was $200 for a year's
worth of support ( really I only wanted to pay for the 1 incident,
but they didn't have that as an option ).

The first thing they told me was try different wireless hardware. I
said I had. They said try a Linux compatible one. I said great, which
one is compatible? They said, we can't tell / don't know, you just
need to try it out yourself! I said, you mean I need to go to the
store, buy a card, see if it works, if not, return it and repeat
until I find one (if I do at all) that works? They said yes! I said
are you crazy, who's got that kind of time (and money since you have
to pay restock fees these days for opened hardware), just give me a
list of cards that are known to work, they said they would if they had one!

In frustration I googled for such a list, and what little I found
only pointed to cards that had chipsets which were no longer available.

After what seemed like weeks back and forth with them, we finally got
the wireless card to work sporadically. I had to run a Beta version
of Ubuntu just to achieve that. Then I found out the software I was
working with would not run with some of the libraries that come
installed in that newer version of Ubuntu. Trying to manuall
downgrade never worked right no matter what. So in the end, we used
the older version, and ignored the fact that wireless wouldn't work
at all, and I had to run a large ethernet cable to my basement where
I needed internet access. Overall it was a disaster in my opinion.

In the meantime, while waiting for help from the Ubuntu support I
paid for, I was playing with many other distros. All of them had
different issues, printers wouldn't work, monitor would not work,
networking would not work. It was a total mess. In the end, I found
Ubuntu to be "the best" of the linux crowd that I had tried, but
after that experience I was very turned off to Linux as a reasonable
alternative to Microsoft, which for me, has *always* worked just fine
( with only the occasional hiccup ).

I really wanted Linux to be everything it was touted as being, and
perhaps if you have exactly the right hardware it is, but for me, I
won't bother looking at it again until it's matured further / or gets
far better hardware support.

PS - I still hope that Linux will be a huge success someday, but
unless I've got lots of time to waste or I get new hardware, I'm not
touching it again any time soon.

FWIW - It works great in a virtual machine, and that's where I ended
up doing a lot of the development for that project on.

Also Linux is great for anything other than a Desktop OS, ie, for
servers, embedded devices where the hardware is far more controlled.

I'll put on my fire retardant clothing now for all the Linux lover
flames that are coming! :)

-Steve




>As for your Ubuntu experience, mine is considerably different.
>
>Jeff Johnson
>***@san-dc.com
>SanDC, Inc.
>623-582-0323
>Fax [phone]
>
>
[excessive quoting removed by server]

[Ted Roche]

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 4:24 PM, Steve Ellenoff <***@pinmame.com> wrote:
> Maybe I was just not lucky, but my experiences with Ubuntu were
> pretty bad ( this was in 2008 ).

Yes, it was.

I started using Linux in 1998 and switched over most of our systems in
2002 - 2004.

There were days I was ready to switch back. But there are days I'm
ready to throw our Vista machines out the window, too!

I have had to learn (or un-learn) a lot, but I feel my systems are
running better, more reliably and robustly.

We have 9 Linux boxes in house, 4 windows box, a Mac and four Linux
boxes deployed elsewhere. Clients are split 50/50 between our legacy
Fox business and new LAMP businesses. Most of them run Windows on
their desktops ( we don't provide desktop support).

> PS - I still hope that Linux will be a huge success someday, but
> unless I've got lots of time to waste or I get new hardware, I'm not
> touching it again any time soon.

Linux is a huge success now. It runs most of the Apache instances,
which in turn runs most of the internet. It runs Google. It runs
Twitter. It runs Amazon.

Linux on the desktop has never been the main emphasis of the many FOSS
efforts going on. However, a lot of people have a lot of success with
it. I'm sorry your experience didn't turn out that way.

> FWIW - It works great in a virtual machine, and that's where I ended
> up doing a lot of the development for that project on.

Heh. That's how I run Windows these days.

> I'll put on my fire retardant clothing now for all the Linux lover
> flames that are coming! :)

Computers are a pita. All of them. Linux is just a smidge better for
some things, OS X for others.

--
Ted Roche
Ted Roche & Associates, LLC
http://www.tedroche.com

[Steve Ellenoff]

>Linux is a huge success now. It runs most of the Apache instances,
>which in turn runs most of the internet. It runs Google. It runs
>Twitter. It runs Amazon.

Yes, sorry, I should have qualified my statement to mean a huge
success as a Desktop OS replacement, since it's success in other
roles is undeniable.

>--
>Ted Roche
>Ted Roche & Associates, LLC
>http://www.tedroche.com
>
[excessive quoting removed by server]

[Ted Roche]

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 4:46 PM, Steve Ellenoff <***@pinmame.com> wrote:
>
> Yes, sorry, I should have qualified my statement to mean a huge
> success as a Desktop OS replacement, since it's success in other
> roles is undeniable.
>

While Ubuntu and Fedora and their upstream projects are certainly
working hard at making a usable desktop for everyone, I really don't
think there's a coordinated effort to displace Windows.There are lots
of "switcher" success stories, but I'm not going to fight
anecdote-with-anecdote.

It won't replace the gamer contingent when Direct-Whatever is the target API.

It won't replace Excel-running beancounters who cling to their
overly-complex worksheets (OpenOffice.org is a worthy competitor, but
it's not going to convert every obscure line of Excel Basic or Excel
VBA or god-forbid, OLE Automation). If someone's willing to learn
OO.o, there's not much you can do with one you can't with the other.

It won't replace companies who insist they are addicted to Exchange
shared folders, contacts and calendars. There are equivalent but not
identical solutions from many other vendors, but some company's
(PHB,imo) management consider this a deal breaker.

I have never run into a data entry clerk thrilled to learn to use a
new version of my program, never mind a new operating system or GUI.
(They're just as unhappy with Vista Aero as they would be with
GNOME.). There's a huge resistance in that contingent.

On the flip side, Gen-X/Y'ers get a new phone every year and learn a
new UI. They can sit down at a Mac or a KDE box or Windows and get
done what they need to. The relevance of OS is fading. The only reason
for Windows continued popularity is bundling and inertia.

Businesses aren't going to switch until they decide the cost of
retooling is less expensive than the bundled, discounted software plus
support plus virus, worm, malware problems, firewalls, botnets, spam
scanners and upgrade costs.

As a developer workstation, I don't think Linux can be beat. I'm
really happy with Vim and Git and FireFox and FireBug and Apache and
Ruby on Rails hitting MySQL or Postgres. I can do it all on my local
machine, free of licensing costs, or distribute it over many machines
(development, staging, demo, production) at no further expense, other
than commodity hardware and bandwidth. Many of my fellow Rails
developers prefer OS X. It is shiny. But the only ones I know running
Windows explain they do that because "they have to," usually because
it's a company machine or their spouse has some Windows-only need.

Of course, if you're trying to develop Windows-only software, it's a poor fit.

Q: what's the most popular brand of web browser shipped last year?
A: Nokia

Steve E, I'm sorry you had a tough time. Hardware compatibility is
always an issue. And wireless vendors are notorious. The situation has
improved in the past year. However, if you have a no-name laptop
there's a good chance the no-name commodity parts are going to be hard
to get working. A name-brand machine is better. I have Linux and *nix
variants running in the office on PowerPC, Intel, AMD., Geode, and
ARM-based machines, Dells, HP, Lenovos and Macs.

--
Ted Roche
Ted Roche & Associates, LLC
http://www.tedroche.com

[Jeff Johnson]

On 4/22/2010 4:52 PM, Ted Roche wrote:
> While Ubuntu and Fedora and their upstream projects are certainly
> working hard at making a usable desktop for everyone, I really don't
> think there's a coordinated effort to displace Windows.There are lots
> of "switcher" success stories, but I'm not going to fight
> anecdote-with-anecdote.

To all of this, I remember moving from RPG, BASIC & COBOL to FoxPro 2.0.
It was a learning curve, but one worth taking. If anyone is looking
for new direction I suggest going through the Dabo Pycon tutorial.

Great job guys!!

Jeff

Jeff Johnson
***@san-dc.com
SanDC, Inc.
623-582-0323
Fax [phone]

[Alan Bourke]

On Thu, 22 Apr 2010 19:52 -0400, "Ted Roche" <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 4:46 PM, Steve Ellenoff <***@pinmame.com>
>
> It won't replace the gamer contingent when Direct-Whatever is the target
> API.

Now that Valve are bringing Steam, their content delivery platform, to
Apple and Linux, and using it to deliver native versions of their games
(as opposed to PC versions run through Wine) we might find that this is
much less of a sticking point in a few years time.
--
Alan Bourke
alanpbourke (at) fastmail (dot) fm

[Jeff Johnson]

Steve: GIYF. I installed Ubuntu on a Vista laptop. It is a dual boot
XP and Ubuntu. It was easier getting Linux to run on it than XP. XP
didn't have drivers and there wasn't a lot of help. The Ubuntu forum
and other Linux forums solved any problems I had. There is an option
for using restricted drivers.
http://www.michaellarabel.com/index.php?k=blog&i=114 solved the
networking problem.

A lot of people griped about Vista. Maybe this was because it is not
XP. From my experience I see a lot of similarities between Vista and
Linux and learning it is not a lot different than learning Vista. It
takes some patience and there is a learning curve, but for me it was
well worth it.

Don't get me started on the mac delete key. ;^)

Jeff

Jeff Johnson
***@san-dc.com
SanDC, Inc.
623-582-0323
Fax [phone]


On 4/21/2010 1:24 PM, Steve Ellenoff wrote:
> Maybe I was just not lucky, but my experiences with Ubuntu were
> pretty bad ( this was in 2008 ). Overall it worked just fine except
> that wireless networking would simply not work. I wasted several days
> of hair pulling and stress reading, researching and trying everything
> I could to get it to work, but it simply would not. I even tried
> several different wireless devices to see if it was a hardware
> compatibility issue.

[Ricardo Aráoz]

Stephen Russell wrote:
> Open Source is free as in Frustration.
>
> Don't let anyone lie to you and say that it is not.
>
>
Proprietary is expensive as in shit.
Don't let anyone lie to you and say that it is not.
We were sold this expensive closed source development system. We were
robbed! It's worthless, filled with bugs, conceptual holes, bad to
non-existent documentation, bad support, old techniques, etc.etc.

So from this extensive research I have deduced that all proprietary
systems are shit.
So judging from Stephen's experience and exhaustive research, and mine
we can certainly say that the best thing to do is burn all computers.

[Stephen Russell]

2010/4/21 Ricardo Aráoz <***@gmail.com>:
> Stephen Russell wrote:
>> Open Source is free as in Frustration.
>>
>> Don't let anyone lie to you and say that it is not.
>>
>>
> Proprietary  is expensive as in shit.
> Don't let anyone lie to you and say that it is not.
> We were sold this expensive closed source development system. We were
> robbed! It's worthless, filled with bugs, conceptual holes, bad to
> non-existent documentation, bad support, old techniques, etc.etc.
---------------------

At least you get what you pay for. Instead you just fiddle the books
with fake reductions in actual hard costs yet you are exposed to
potential overtime or screw the salaried to keep working till it's
done.

Time is money no matter how you want to hide it. Calling to get
answers about Sun-java is an experience our team says.

All of the work that these people do not achieve on a daily basis
because they have been dicking around with this hidden in your
accounting of the situation. In your GL you cannot measure non
completed work to the variety of customers this IT dept. has.

Did you sue the vendor of that "expensive closed source development
system" or did your legal team say you have no ground to stand on?
Was it SAP? Bad Steve!

> So from this extensive research I have deduced that all proprietary
> systems are shit.
> So judging from Stephen's experience and exhaustive research, and mine
> we can certainly say that the best thing to do is burn all computers.
---------------

Love that research. Got a match? I can get my flame thrower off the
barbecue trailer and we can waste a Toast server rack in about 1 min.
<http://www.flameengineering.com/Red_Dragon_Propane_Torch_K.html>

Anyone got a bit bucket?

--
Stephen Russell

Sr. Production Systems Programmer
CIMSgts

901.246-0159 cell

[Ricardo Aráoz]

Stephen Russell wrote:
> 2010/4/21 Ricardo Aráoz <***@gmail.com>:
>
>> Stephen Russell wrote:
>>
>>> Open Source is free as in Frustration.
>>>
>>> Don't let anyone lie to you and say that it is not.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Proprietary is expensive as in shit.
>> Don't let anyone lie to you and say that it is not.
>> We were sold this expensive closed source development system. We were
>> robbed! It's worthless, filled with bugs, conceptual holes, bad to
>> non-existent documentation, bad support, old techniques, etc.etc.
>>
> ---------------------
>
> At least you get what you pay for.
Not here sadly.
OTOH many, many times I got much more than I had payed for, specially
with open source. Open Office rocks, so does PostgreSQL, Apache, Dabo,
SPE, VirtualBox, Ubuntu (though I've had my issues), Thunderbird,
Mozilla, etc.etc. All of these gave me more than a gazillion times what
I paid for them.

> Instead you just fiddle the books
> with fake reductions in actual hard costs yet you are exposed to
> potential overtime or screw the salaried to keep working till it's
> done.
>
> Time is money no matter how you want to hide it. Calling to get
> answers about Sun-java is an experience our team says.
> All of the work that these people do not achieve on a daily basis
> because they have been dicking around with this hidden in your
> accounting of the situation. In your GL you cannot measure non
> completed work to the variety of customers this IT dept. has.
>
Yes....... I wonder who was the idiot who said LAMP held most of the
internet. Obviously someone who does not have your sound judgment on
open source topics (bad Ricardo).

> Did you sue the vendor of that "expensive closed source development
> system" or did your legal team say you have no ground to stand on?
> Was it SAP? Bad Steve!
>
Nope. Still using it. You know, politics. I don't get to decide which
tools to use... sigh.





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[Stephen Russell]

2010/4/21 Ricardo Aráoz <***@gmail.com>:

>> Time is money no matter how you want to hide it.  Calling to get
>> answers about Sun-java is an experience our team says.
>> All of the work that these people do not achieve on a daily basis
>> because they have been dicking around with this hidden in your
>> accounting of the situation.  In your GL you cannot measure non
>> completed work to the variety of customers this IT dept. has.
>>
> Yes....... I wonder who was the idiot who said LAMP held most of the
> internet. Obviously someone who does not have your sound judgment on
> open source topics (bad Ricardo).
---------------------

Lamp is the structure you hang other software off of, and scratch the
P for java companies.

My group may have 5-10 add-ons within java.

I am also removed from this whole thing by one layer.



--
Stephen Russell

Sr. Production Systems Programmer
CIMSgts

901.246-0159 cell

[Ed Leafe]

On Apr 21, 2010, at 2:36 PM, Stephen Russell wrote:

> Open Source is free as in Frustration.
>
> Don't let anyone lie to you and say that it is not.


Well, why not fight anecdote with anecdote!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
At 11 a.m. today, 4/21, McAfee, released an update to its customers that improperly identified a critical component of Windows as having a virus.

The majority of McAfee’s customers worldwide, automatically propagates these virus definitions to their client PCs.

Roughly 800,000 PCs randomly distributed across the world automatically received the virus scan update and are now experiencing repetitive reboots. These computers are not functioning at this time and will be offline until the problem is fixed.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

http://andreyf.tumblr.com/post/538652366/info-roundup-mcafee-kills-computers-worldwide
( -or- http://j.mp/b4zZeD )

So I guess I don't understand: you PAID for this software, you PAID for your OS, but you are still subject to having your computer totally hosed for no good reason? So if open source costs time instead of money, proprietary software costs time AND money!


-- Ed Leafe

[Stephen Russell]

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 4:07 PM, Ed Leafe <***@leafe.com> wrote:
> On Apr 21, 2010, at 2:36 PM, Stephen Russell wrote:
>
>> Open Source is free as in Frustration.
>>
>> Don't let anyone lie to you and say that it is not.
>
>
>        Well, why not fight anecdote with anecdote!
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> At 11 a.m. today, 4/21, McAfee, released an update to its customers that improperly identified a critical component of Windows as having a virus.
>
> The majority of McAfee’s customers worldwide, automatically propagates these virus definitions to their client PCs.
>
> Roughly 800,000 PCs randomly distributed across the world automatically received the virus scan update and are now experiencing repetitive reboots. These computers are not functioning at this time and will be offline until the problem is fixed.
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> http://andreyf.tumblr.com/post/538652366/info-roundup-mcafee-kills-computers-worldwide
> ( -or- http://j.mp/b4zZeD )
>
>        So I guess I don't understand: you PAID for this software, you PAID for your OS, but you are still subject to having your computer totally hosed for no good reason? So if open source costs time instead of money, proprietary software costs time AND money!
------------------------------

Testing is still skipped so WTF. Have a homebrew and don't worry till
IT fixes it!

Long ago I paid McAfee and found that they were wacked. Maybe the
rest of the world should follow suit?

Funny was when they lied about grabbing 1 gig of virus on my laptop
back then and it was only a 6 or 10 gig drive. I kept running out of
space!

Task info identified what app was making this file and I had prof.
They didn't or was it "wouldn't" admit it.

--
Stephen Russell

Sr. Production Systems Programmer
CIMSgts

901.246-0159 cell

[Ed Leafe]

On Apr 21, 2010, at 5:28 PM, Stephen Russell wrote:

> Long ago I paid McAfee and found that they were wacked. Maybe the
> rest of the world should follow suit?


Are you not paying attention, or just being coy?

You have a problem with a particular system that is using some open source software, and then pronounce all open source software as unworthy. Yet here you mention paying for software and having problems, yet you don't make the same leap and condemn all paid software. That's called inconsistency at best, and hypocrisy at worst.


-- Ed Leafe

[h***@hrsdc-rhdcc.gc.ca]

I just realized that I never before used updatable views where more than one table needed to be updated. I now see that the joinable fields do not get automatically filled (to maintain the JOIN).

In the example below, I need to update all fields except 3: The two PKs (they are AutoInc) and HsgUnit.fk_address (I won't know the value until Address.pk_address gets auto-filled when a record is added to Address).

SELECT Address.pk_address, (some ADDRESS fields), ;
Hsgunit.pk_hsgunit, Hsgunit.fk_address, (some HSGUNIT fields) ; FROM LOCVIEW!ADDRESS ; INNER JOIN LOCVIEW!HSGUNIT ON Address.pk_address = Hsgunit.fk_address

Considering that the view is JOINed by the pk_adress-fk_address, I would have expected HsgUnit.fk_address to get populated on save.

What am I missing?

Thx

Henry