Discussion:
Timers in VFP
m***@mbsoftwaresolutions.com
2018-01-24 17:11:12 UTC
Permalink
I've got a timer in a very small "listener" app that checks a web
service and changes data in the local database based on WS returned
records. I vaguely recall somebody saying timers in VFP were bad (at
some point). Was it a memory leak or something? Tapping into this
list's vast years of experience with this question. So far, my app
works flawlessly, pretty much on timer cue, and doesn't appear to have
any memory issues.

Was just curious about this vague recollection. Thanks.

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Ken Dibble
2018-01-24 17:31:35 UTC
Permalink
I vaguely recall somebody saying timers in VFP were bad (at some point).
I have a timer that tracks user activity and shuts down my
application if there has been no activity for a period of time. It
generally works well, but I've had a few issues with it:

1. Time is *very* approximate. If I configure it to shut down after
15 minutes without activity, I can expect it to go at least 15
minutes, but as long as 20 to 25 minutes. This seems to be affected
by whatever else is happening on the machine.

2. Timers complicate debugging. I think they contribute to the fact
that the debugger doesn't always land on the actual line of code
where an error occurred. And if the timer is going to force a jump to
some other place, or shut down the application, you need to have a
routine to turn it off for your "debug mode", or you won't be able to
spend much time analyzing things in the debugger.

3. I have speculated--with no proof--that timers contribute to
incidents where VFP doesn't necessarily execute code in the order in
which it is encountered. For example, various screen
painting/updating issues. Sometimes you can call .Refresh() or
.Paint() until you're blue in the face and it just doesn't happen
until VFP gets done doing whatever it thinks is more important.

I, too, recall this issue being discussed and I think some people had
some even more esoteric points.

Ken Dibble
www.stic-cil.org


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Paul H. Tarver
2018-01-24 18:09:39 UTC
Permalink
Something make me click on your website link, Ken, and I was surprised to
see you work in the Binghamton, NY area. My wife is the from Elmira/Corning
and I've been through your pretty town many times.

Paul


-----Original Message-----
From: ProfoxTech [mailto:profoxtech-***@leafe.com] On Behalf Of Ken
Dibble
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 11:32 AM
To: ***@leafe.com
Subject: Re: Timers in VFP
I vaguely recall somebody saying timers in VFP were bad (at some point).
I have a timer that tracks user activity and shuts down my application if
there has been no activity for a period of time. It generally works well,
but I've had a few issues with it:

1. Time is *very* approximate. If I configure it to shut down after
15 minutes without activity, I can expect it to go at least 15 minutes, but
as long as 20 to 25 minutes. This seems to be affected by whatever else is
happening on the machine.

2. Timers complicate debugging. I think they contribute to the fact that the
debugger doesn't always land on the actual line of code where an error
occurred. And if the timer is going to force a jump to some other place, or
shut down the application, you need to have a routine to turn it off for
your "debug mode", or you won't be able to spend much time analyzing things
in the debugger.

3. I have speculated--with no proof--that timers contribute to incidents
where VFP doesn't necessarily execute code in the order in which it is
encountered. For example, various screen painting/updating issues. Sometimes
you can call .Refresh() or
.Paint() until you're blue in the face and it just doesn't happen until VFP
gets done doing whatever it thinks is more important.

I, too, recall this issue being discussed and I think some people had some
even more esoteric points.

Ken Dibble
www.stic-cil.org


[excessive quoting removed by server]

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Ken Dibble
2018-01-24 20:16:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul H. Tarver
Something make me click on your website link, Ken, and I was surprised to
see you work in the Binghamton, NY area. My wife is the from Elmira/Corning
and I've been through your pretty town many times.
HI Paul. Pleased to hear that you think it's pretty. I do too--you
can be anywhere in this town and look up and see forested hillsides.

Ken


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John Weller
2018-01-24 21:19:29 UTC
Permalink
I visited Binghamton in 1981 to attend a meeting at Singer Link, wish I
could have stayed longer. Are Singer Link still there?

John Weller
01380 723235
07976 393631
HI Paul. Pleased to hear that you think it's pretty. I do too--you can be
anywhere in this town and look up and see forested hillsides.
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Ken Dibble
2018-02-18 19:34:56 UTC
Permalink
John,

For some reason this message didn't get delivered to my work email. I
was just combing through the list at home and saw it today.

Singer Link is gone. CAE Corp bought it, and Hughes Aircraft bought
CAE and relocated most of the simulator stuff to Arlington, TX. The
federal government had a couple of classifed projects going at the
Binghamton plant and insisted they stay there. Those are now owned by
L3 and are still located at the industrial park in Kirkwood. Most of
the Singer-Link building has been taken over and converted to a
multi-tenant space.

Ken
Post by John Weller
I visited Binghamton in 1981 to attend a meeting at Singer Link, wish I
could have stayed longer. Are Singer Link still there?
John Weller
01380 723235
07976 393631
HI Paul. Pleased to hear that you think it's pretty. I do too--you can be
anywhere in this town and look up and see forested hillsides.
[excessive quoting removed by server]

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John Weller
2018-02-19 10:30:16 UTC
Permalink
Hi Ken,

Thanks for that. I was a navigator in the RAF for many years and was
seconded to the UK arm of Singer Link between 1978 and 1982 to work on the
Tornado simulator project. The Binghamton office was doing some work for
the project hence my visit. I often wondered what happened to them after I
left :-)

Regards

John

John Weller
01380 723235
07976 393631
John,
For some reason this message didn't get delivered to my work email. I was
just combing through the list at home and saw it today.
Singer Link is gone. CAE Corp bought it, and Hughes Aircraft bought CAE
and
relocated most of the simulator stuff to Arlington, TX. The federal
government had a couple of classifed projects going at the Binghamton
plant
and insisted they stay there. Those are now owned by
L3 and are still located at the industrial park in Kirkwood. Most of the
Singer-
Link building has been taken over and converted to a multi-tenant space.
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Dave Crozier
2018-02-19 13:08:04 UTC
Permalink
John,

I had a play around with the early GAT-1 simulator but never got to try out the GAT-2 and subsequent models.. <sigh>

For their day they were extremely advanced.

News dated 1988:
"TORONTO, July 8— The Singer Company agreed today to sell its Link flight simulation and training systems division to CAE Industries of Canada for $550 million.
The sale is part of the breakup of Singer. The Stamford, Conn., military contractor was acquired in January by the Florida financier Paul Bilzerian, who has since said that all of Singer's divisions are up for sale.
Also today, Singer agreed to sell its education division for $20 million.
On Tuesday, Singer said it would sell its power tools and floor-care equipment division to Ryobi Ltd. of Japan for about $325 million.
CAE, a Toronto-based manufacturer of commercial flight simulators and other industrial products, said it had reached a definitive agreement with Singer to buy the Link division. It said it would finance the cost of the acquisition internally and through bank borrowings.
Singer's Link division, based in Binghamton, N.Y., employs 7,500 and posted revenues of $550 million in 1987.
Analysts said the purchase would more than double CAE's size and would create a leading producer of flight simulators.
''I think it will be the world's leader in commercial and military flight simulation,'' said Mark Lawrence, a technology analyst for Prudential-Bache Securities Canada Ltd.
Separately, Integrated Resources Inc. announced today that it would purchase Singer's education division for $20 million. The division, known as Career Systems Development, is an operator of vocational training centers.
The sales of these divisions will help Mr. Bilzerian pay off debt he accumulated during his $1.06 billion takeover of Singer, which came after a long battle with management."


Dave Crozier
Software Development Manager
Flexipol Packaging Ltd.



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Tel:01706-222792
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Flexipol Packaging Ltd. ("The Company") has received in cash or cleared funds payment in full of the price of the goods and all other goods agreed to be sold by the seller to the buyer for which payment is then due. Until such time as the property in the goods passes to the buyer, the buyer shall hold the goods as the seller's fiduciary agent and bailee and keep the goods separate from those of the buyer and third parties and properly stored protected and insured and identified as the seller's property but shall be entitled to resell or use the goods in the ordinary course of its business. Until such time as the property in the goods passes to the buyer the seller shall be entitled at any time

-----Original Message-----
From: ProFox [mailto:profox-***@leafe.com] On Behalf Of John Weller
Sent: 19 February 2018 10:30
To: ***@leafe.com
Subject: RE: [NF] RE: Timers in VFP

Hi Ken,

Thanks for that. I was a navigator in the RAF for many years and was seconded to the UK arm of Singer Link between 1978 and 1982 to work on the Tornado simulator project. The Binghamton office was doing some work for the project hence my visit. I often wondered what happened to them after I left :-)

Regards

John

John Weller
01380 723235
07976 393631
Post by Ken Dibble
John,
For some reason this message didn't get delivered to my work email. I
was just combing through the list at home and saw it today.
Singer Link is gone. CAE Corp bought it, and Hughes Aircraft bought CAE
and
Post by Ken Dibble
relocated most of the simulator stuff to Arlington, TX. The federal
government had a couple of classifed projects going at the Binghamton
plant
Post by Ken Dibble
and insisted they stay there. Those are now owned by
L3 and are still located at the industrial park in Kirkwood. Most of the
Singer-
Post by Ken Dibble
Link building has been taken over and converted to a multi-tenant space.
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Ken Dibble
2018-02-19 16:01:28 UTC
Permalink
And, for what it's worth, (and strangely enough),
although the local airport is now called the
"Greater Binghamton Airport", the actual _field_,
as in "airfield", is still called "Edwin A. Link Field".

Ken
Post by Dave Crozier
John,
I had a play around with the early GAT-1
simulator but never got to try out the GAT-2 and subsequent models.. <sigh>
For their day they were extremely advanced.
"TORONTO, July 8— The Singer Commpany agreed
today to sell its Link flight simulation and
training systems division to CAE Industries of Canada for $550 million.
The sale is part of the breakup of Singer. The
Stamford, Conn., military contractor was
acquired in January by the Florida financier
Paul Bilzerian, who has since said that all of
Singer's divisions are up for sale.
Also today, Singer agreed to sell its education division for $20 million.
On Tuesday, Singer said it would sell its power
tools and floor-care equipment division to Ryobi
Ltd. of Japan for about $325 million.
CAE, a Toronto-based manufacturer of commercial
flight simulators and other industrial products,
said it had reached a definitive agreement with
Singer to buy the Link division. It said it
would finance the cost of the acquisition
internally and through bank borrowings.
Singer's Link division, based in Binghamton,
N.Y., employs 7,500 and posted revenues of $550 million in 1987.
Analysts said the purchase would more than
double CAE's size and would create a leading producer of flight simulators.
''I think it will be the world's leader in
commercial and military flight simulation,''
said Mark Lawrence, a technology analyst for
Prudential-Bache Securities Canada Ltd.
Separately, Integrated Resources Inc. announced
today that it would purchase Singer's education
division for $20 million. The division, known as
Career Systems Development, is an operator of vocational training centers.
The sales of these divisions will help Mr.
Bilzerian pay off debt he accumulated during his
$1.06 billion takeover of Singer, which came
after a long battle with management."
Dave Crozier
Software Development Manager
Flexipol Packaging Ltd.
---------------------------------------------------------------
This communication and the information it
contains is intended for the person or
organisation to whom it is addressed. Its
contents are confidential and may be protected
in law. If you have received this e-mail in
error you must not copy, distribute or take any
action in reliance on it. Unauthorised use,
copying or disclosure of any of it may be
unlawful. If you have received this message in
error, please notify us immediately by telephone or email.
Flexipol Packaging Ltd. has taken every
reasonable precaution to minimise the risk of
virus transmission through email and therefore
any files sent via e-mail will have been checked
for known viruses. However, you are advised to
run your own virus check before opening any
attachments received as Flexipol Packaging Ltd
will not in any event accept any liability
whatsoever once an e-mail and/or any attachment is received.
It is the responsibility of the recipient to
ensure that they have adequate virus protection.
Flexipol Packaging Ltd.
Unit 14 Bentwood Road
Carrs
Industrial Estate
Haslingden
Rossendale
Lancashire
BB4 5HH
Tel:01706-222792
Fax: 01706-224683
www.Flexipol.co.uk
---------------------------------------------------------------
Notwithstanding delivery and the passing of risk
in the goods, the property in the goods shall
not pass to the buyer until the seller
Flexipol Packaging Ltd. ("The Company") has
received in cash or cleared funds payment in
full of the price of the goods and all other
goods agreed to be sold by the seller to the
buyer for which payment is then due. Until such
time as the property in the goods passes to the
buyer, the buyer shall hold the goods as the
seller's fiduciary agent and bailee and keep the
goods separate from those of the buyer and third
parties and properly stored protected and
insured and identified as the seller's property
but shall be entitled to resell or use the goods
in the ordinary course of its business. Until
such time as the property in the goods passes to
the buyer the seller shall be entitled at any time
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 19 February 2018 10:30
Subject: RE: [NF] RE: Timers in VFP
Hi Ken,
Thanks for that. I was a navigator in the RAF
for many years and was seconded to the UK arm of
Singer Link between 1978 and 1982 to work on the
Tornado simulator project. The Binghamton
office was doing some work for the project hence
my visit. I often wondered what happened to them after I left :-)
Regards
John
John Weller
01380 723235
07976 393631
Post by Ken Dibble
John,
For some reason this message didn't get delivered to my work email. I
was just combing through the list at home and saw it today.
Singer Link is gone. CAE Corp bought it, and Hughes Aircraft bought CAE
and
Post by Ken Dibble
relocated most of the simulator stuff to Arlington, TX. The federal
government had a couple of classifed projects going at the Binghamton
plant
Post by Ken Dibble
and insisted they stay there. Those are now owned by
L3 and are still located at the industrial park in Kirkwood. Most of the
Singer-
Post by Ken Dibble
Link building has been taken over and converted to a multi-tenant space.
[excessive quoting removed by server]

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Kurt at VR-FX
2018-01-24 22:31:14 UTC
Permalink
Ken and I have been in touch offlist in the past and recently. I
actually grew up in Cortland, and my Dad had a cousin w/kids in
Binghamton - so I spent a bit of time there in my childhood!

-K-
Post by Paul H. Tarver
Something make me click on your website link, Ken, and I was surprised to
see you work in the Binghamton, NY area. My wife is the from Elmira/Corning
and I've been through your pretty town many times.
Paul
-----Original Message-----
Dibble
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: Timers in VFP
I vaguely recall somebody saying timers in VFP were bad (at some point).
I have a timer that tracks user activity and shuts down my application if
there has been no activity for a period of time. It generally works well,
1. Time is *very* approximate. If I configure it to shut down after
15 minutes without activity, I can expect it to go at least 15 minutes, but
as long as 20 to 25 minutes. This seems to be affected by whatever else is
happening on the machine.
2. Timers complicate debugging. I think they contribute to the fact that the
debugger doesn't always land on the actual line of code where an error
occurred. And if the timer is going to force a jump to some other place, or
shut down the application, you need to have a routine to turn it off for
your "debug mode", or you won't be able to spend much time analyzing things
in the debugger.
3. I have speculated--with no proof--that timers contribute to incidents
where VFP doesn't necessarily execute code in the order in which it is
encountered. For example, various screen painting/updating issues. Sometimes
you can call .Refresh() or
.Paint() until you're blue in the face and it just doesn't happen until VFP
gets done doing whatever it thinks is more important.
I, too, recall this issue being discussed and I think some people had some
even more esoteric points.
Ken Dibble
www.stic-cil.org
[excessive quoting removed by server]

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Tracy Pearson
2018-01-24 20:35:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@mbsoftwaresolutions.com
I've got a timer in a very small "listener" app that checks a web
service and changes data in the local database based on WS returned
records. I vaguely recall somebody saying timers in VFP were bad (at
some point). Was it a memory leak or something? Tapping into this
list's vast years of experience with this question. So far, my app
works flawlessly, pretty much on timer cue, and doesn't appear to have
any memory issues.
Was just curious about this vague recollection. Thanks.
Mike,

I don't remember it being a memory leak.
I know, in most cases, it will stop other running code to run.
If your executable is only there to run your timer, and the one process, it
will probably be fine.

Tracy Pearson
PowerChurch Software


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Stephen Russell
2018-01-24 20:37:30 UTC
Permalink
I thought it was a CPU hog. Making the call to the system for the time
100,000 time in a single min.
Post by Tracy Pearson
Post by m***@mbsoftwaresolutions.com
I've got a timer in a very small "listener" app that checks a web
service and changes data in the local database based on WS returned
records. I vaguely recall somebody saying timers in VFP were bad (at
some point). Was it a memory leak or something? Tapping into this
list's vast years of experience with this question. So far, my app
works flawlessly, pretty much on timer cue, and doesn't appear to have
any memory issues.
Was just curious about this vague recollection. Thanks.
Mike,
I don't remember it being a memory leak.
I know, in most cases, it will stop other running code to run.
If your executable is only there to run your timer, and the one process, it
will probably be fine.
Tracy Pearson
PowerChurch Software
[excessive quoting removed by server]

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m***@mbsoftwaresolutions.com
2018-01-24 22:52:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Russell
I thought it was a CPU hog. Making the call to the system for the time
100,000 time in a single min.
Well that's why you have to be smart about it, Stephen, and only call it
every X minutes. In my case, anywhere between 5-15 minutes. Resources
have shown it to be not even noticeable, at least in terms of memory.

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Stephen Russell
2018-01-24 23:01:47 UTC
Permalink
Point in question is knowing what time it is now. When you start the timer
it just keeps running till you turn it off. If you want to know if 10 min
has transpired then it is still running for that 10 min.







On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 4:52 PM, <
Post by m***@mbsoftwaresolutions.com
Post by Stephen Russell
I thought it was a CPU hog. Making the call to the system for the time
100,000 time in a single min.
Well that's why you have to be smart about it, Stephen, and only call it
every X minutes. In my case, anywhere between 5-15 minutes. Resources
have shown it to be not even noticeable, at least in terms of memory.
[excessive quoting removed by server]

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Michael Oke, II
2018-01-25 05:12:25 UTC
Permalink
[image: MailTag]
I have a DLL that handles major timer issues (can't remember where I
originally acquired it) that are not form constrained. Shut down tasks
being chief among those. I've used timers on forms with no real issues
that I've noticed. I do have a check that makes sure that I'm not running
in debug mode tho.


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Post by Stephen Russell
Point in question is knowing what time it is now. When you start the timer
it just keeps running till you turn it off. If you want to know if 10 min
has transpired then it is still running for that 10 min.
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 4:52 PM, <
Post by m***@mbsoftwaresolutions.com
Post by Stephen Russell
I thought it was a CPU hog. Making the call to the system for the time
100,000 time in a single min.
Well that's why you have to be smart about it, Stephen, and only call it
every X minutes. In my case, anywhere between 5-15 minutes. Resources
have shown it to be not even noticeable, at least in terms of memory.
[excessive quoting removed by server]

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Ted Roche
2018-01-25 15:25:30 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 12:11 PM,
I vaguely recall somebody saying timers in VFP were bad (at some point). Was
Timers are like chainsaws. Not too bad, as long as you know which end
to hold onto.

Is your plan to run the app in perpetuity, syncing data, or does this
just run occasionally? A regular VFP app has the tendency to
accumulate cruft over time, and VFP (and Windows) are best restarted
daily.

I've seen problems with Timers (and even apps launched from the
Windows Scheduler) where something keeps the app from completing, say
a slow network connection or errant modal dialog, and the applications
will stack up. If a resource is locked exclusively, later launches of
the app get stuck. If the slowdown is suddenly released, you can have
the unintended effect of multiple invocations trying to complete at
the same time, leading to duplication, stack faults or crashes.

Windows Scheduler has facilities built in to terminate an application
if it doesn't complete in a specified time range. With VFP, that might
be tricky to duplicate: turn off the timer to avoid duplicates, and
set a watchdog timer to CLEAR ALL, CLOSE ALL, RELEASE ALL, QUIT might
do it. But then the timer is off: you'd likely want to signal that
with a lock on a DBF, as the lock would clear when the app was closed.

See? Multithreaded asynchronous coding is simple!
--
Ted Roche
Ted Roche & Associates, LLC
http://www.tedroche.com

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Dave Crozier
2018-01-25 15:56:00 UTC
Permalink
I always used to find when developing comms software where VFP timers are used to poll the input ports that the best thing to do in the Timer Event is to immediately disable the timer.

Despite the logic and documentation that says that a timer event cannot fire until the current timed event has completed (single threading), on many occasions VFP would decide for no reason to stack up timer events when the system was not ready to process them - usually when the system was under load.

The obvious way to deal with this is to change from a "Polled event" to an "interrupt driven" model but the IEEE interface I was using at the time wasn't intelligent enough to generate interrupts - hence the need to poll the input port on a frequent basis.

Dave




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-----Original Message-----
From: ProFox [mailto:profox-***@leafe.com] On Behalf Of Ted Roche
Sent: 25 January 2018 15:26
To: ***@leafe.com
Subject: Re: Timers in VFP

On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 12:11 PM,
I vaguely recall somebody saying timers in VFP were bad (at some point). Was
Timers are like chainsaws. Not too bad, as long as you know which end to hold onto.

Is your plan to run the app in perpetuity, syncing data, or does this just run occasionally? A regular VFP app has the tendency to accumulate cruft over time, and VFP (and Windows) are best restarted daily.

I've seen problems with Timers (and even apps launched from the Windows Scheduler) where something keeps the app from completing, say a slow network connection or errant modal dialog, and the applications will stack up. If a resource is locked exclusively, later launches of the app get stuck. If the slowdown is suddenly released, you can have the unintended effect of multiple invocations trying to complete at the same time, leading to duplication, stack faults or crashes.

Windows Scheduler has facilities built in to terminate an application if it doesn't complete in a specified time range. With VFP, that might be tricky to duplicate: turn off the timer to avoid duplicates, and set a watchdog timer to CLEAR ALL, CLOSE ALL, RELEASE ALL, QUIT might do it. But then the timer is off: you'd likely want to signal that with a lock on a DBF, as the lock would clear when the app was closed.

See? Multithreaded asynchronous coding is simple!

--
Ted Roche
Ted Roche & Associates, LLC
http://www.tedroche.com

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m***@mbsoftwaresolutions.com
2018-01-25 16:13:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Crozier
I always used to find when developing comms software where VFP timers
are used to poll the input ports that the best thing to do in the
Timer Event is to immediately disable the timer.
Yep...that's what I do too. First line in timer event turns it off,
then re-enables when done.


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