[NF] How many indexes do you need?

[Stephen Russell]

The message the author presents works across all data environments.

https://www.brentozar.com/archive/2018/10/index-tuning-week-how-many-indexes-are-too-many/
--
Stephen Russell
Sr. Analyst
Ring Container Technology
Oakland TN

901.246-0159 cell


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[Paul H. Tarver]

Good article. I have to admit sometimes I cheat and have more than five
indexes with one column each when I'm optimizing Rushmore on temporary
cursors, but otherwise, this is really good advice.

Keeping it simple, keeps it fast.

Paul H. Tarver
Email: ***@tpcqpc.com


-----Original Message-----
From: ProfoxTech [mailto:profoxtech-***@leafe.com] On Behalf Of Stephen
Russell
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2018 2:24 PM
To: ***@leafe.com
Subject: [NF] How many indexes do you need?

The message the author presents works across all data environments.

https://www.brentozar.com/archive/2018/10/index-tuning-week-how-many-indexes
-are-too-many/
--
Stephen Russell
Sr. Analyst
Ring Container Technology
Oakland TN

901.246-0159 cell


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[excessive quoting removed by server]

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[Gene Wirchenko]

Post by Paul H. Tarver
Good article. I have to admit sometimes I cheat and have more than five
indexes with one column each when I'm optimizing Rushmore on temporary
cursors, but otherwise, this is really good advice.

This is stupid advice. An arbitrary number of indexes is not
correct. Instead, determine how many indexes are required and create
that many.

Post by Paul H. Tarver
Keeping it simple, keeps it fast.

But it might not meet the needs of the users.

[snip]

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko


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[Stephen Russell]

Gene, you may have the point or missed it totally, not sure. The number of
indexes you maintain is a performance hit when you have a lot of data in a
table and your index is SELDOM used. The more complex the index is for a
use at EOM operation may impact the daily CRUD operations of that table for
all the other days of the week. Here are identical clustered and
non clustered indexes

CREATE UNIQUE CLUSTERED INDEX [Itwhinh4331a] ON [dbo].[twhinh433]
(
[t_shpm] ASC,
[t_pono] ASC,
[t_boml] ASC,
[t_dssq] ASC,
[t_serl] ASC
)WITH (PAD_INDEX = OFF, STATISTICS_NORECOMPUTE = OFF, SORT_IN_TEMPDB = OFF,
IGNORE_DUP_KEY = OFF, DROP_EXISTING = OFF, ONLINE = OFF, ALLOW_ROW_LOCKS =
ON, ALLOW_PAGE_LOCKS = ON) ON [PRIMARY]
GO

Here you have 5 columns to define unique in one of my LOTS consumption
tables. This is only one index and the Shipment number will direct the
natural order for the output of this index.

The article didn't go into the basics of index NAZI techniques because
Brent sells a class for learning just that at the very bottom of the blog.
:)

When you get into actual index tuning to deliver top performance the little
things are what get adjusted to give you that big payoff in the end. When
you are doing EOM operations and truncate the working tables to pull in
last months data, having fewer indexes will speed things up. The
generation of all the leaves that are required to grow, break as they
expand while the table takes in 100,000 rows of data slows down the
process. The worst ones are nvarchar data for a name or address. I have
found that it is better to drop those indexes on the front end and generate
them after the data is inserted.

YMMV

Post by Gene Wirchenko

Post by Paul H. Tarver
Good article. I have to admit sometimes I cheat and have more than five
indexes with one column each when I'm optimizing Rushmore on temporary
cursors, but otherwise, this is really good advice.

This is stupid advice. An arbitrary number of indexes is not
correct. Instead, determine how many indexes are required and create
that many.

Post by Paul H. Tarver
Keeping it simple, keeps it fast.

But it might not meet the needs of the users.
[snip]
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko

[excessive quoting removed by server]

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[Stephen Russell]

Lucky for me that we are still on 2012 Enterprise and 2014 standard
editions.

I cringe at this " or lets the Database Engine automatically fix
performance problems."

I am afraid that it will
1. Generate the index at the WRONG TIME
2. Create many more indexes that consume a great deal of disk space because
the tables have close to a billion rows.
3. We have a vendor supplied system and I have to follow their rules to
keep our support costs down, hahahahahaha.
4. I would like to get notice on what the machine needs to do and schedule
it in proposed downtime.
5. Working better with machines is the only way to advance looking forward,
I just want to know when and what might be happening.

For a taste of the future check out SQL Server 2017's index tuning
recommendations and the Azure hosted version of SQL Server 2017 that can
proactively implement these tuning recommendations on your behalf.
Automatic tuning
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/sql/relational-databases/automatic-tuning/automatic-tuning?view=sql-server-2017
Malcolm

[excessive quoting removed by server]

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[Stephen Russell]

We are not committed to 2017 as of yet, it takes Infor to give approval to
us that we can take that step.

To be honest we are 30-70 at going to the cloud with our ERP in 2020. I am
afraid of the bloodletting that will take place next year here helping our
vendor learn how to operate both in the cloud as well as on-prem for the
variety of products they sell us and where they will run.

Stuff like warehouse automation makes my back tense up. Getting the data
from here in our LAN up to there and all of the joy we have today with
other systems locking rows that cause us to receive phone calls at night to
fix this crap. I do not see our cloud vendor stopping this and it is ALL
their SW that does the locking today.

Post by Stephen Russell

I cringe at this "or lets the Database Engine automatically fix

performance problems."
The tuning can be automated or you can just receive recommendations. We're
dipping our toes in the water with this feature, but it looks promising.
Malcolm

[excessive quoting removed by server]

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[Ken McGinnis]

first of all ctrl C & V work as they are supposed to everywhere but this
one place:

We have some text boxes on one screen in our program. If you ctrl C
(copy) anything from one text box and then ctrl V (paste) it to another
text box, the screen goes blank.

Moving the mouse around after the screen is blank has no effect, the
screen stays blank. If you happen to click where that text box was, it
reappears.

Then if you move your mouse to the side of the screen, the screen
reappears (but not the info you pasted). Then if you leave that screen
and then go back to that screen, everything seems normal.

Someone just today noticed this. This has not been reported before in
many years. The same source code has been compiled in several versions
of VFP and several windows OS back to Win 2000.

[excessive quoting removed by server]

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[Ken McGinnis]

I left out some important info. The box that contains the info you want
to copy is a memo text box. When you exceed the allowed amount, we pop
up a box that allows unlimited data entry. If you copy that, the crazy
stuff happens.

______________________________________

first of all ctrl C & V work as they are supposed to everywhere but this
one place:

We have some text boxes on one screen in our program. If you ctrl C
(copy) anything from one text box and then ctrl V (paste) it to another
text box, the screen goes blank.

Moving the mouse around after the screen is blank has no effect, the
screen stays blank. If you happen to click where that text box was, it
reappears.

Then if you move your mouse to the side of the screen, the screen
reappears (but not the info you pasted). Then if you leave that screen
and then go back to that screen, everything seems normal.

Someone just today noticed this. This has not been reported before in
many years. The same source code has been compiled in several versions
of VFP and several windows OS back to Win 2000.

[excessive quoting removed by server]

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[Tracy Pearson]

You're description of the problem reminds me of what the LockScreen property
can do to a form.
I have seen some odd behaviors with Modal forms opening other Modal forms,
but not that specific behavior.

Can you give some more detail about how these forms are built?
Is there any code that changes the LockScreen property?
Is this in Screen, or a top-level screen?

-----Original Message-----
From: ProfoxTech [mailto:profoxtech-***@leafe.com] On Behalf Of Ken
McGinnis
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2018 1:08 PM
To: ***@leafe.com
Subject: Fwd: question about crazy ctrl C and ctrl V thing in the vfp9 sp2
program

I left out some important info. The box that contains the info you want
to copy is a memo text box. When you exceed the allowed amount, we pop
up a box that allows unlimited data entry. If you copy that, the crazy
stuff happens.

______________________________________

first of all ctrl C & V work as they are supposed to everywhere but this
one place:

We have some text boxes on one screen in our program. If you ctrl C
(copy) anything from one text box and then ctrl V (paste) it to another
text box, the screen goes blank.

Moving the mouse around after the screen is blank has no effect, the
screen stays blank. If you happen to click where that text box was, it
reappears.

Then if you move your mouse to the side of the screen, the screen
reappears (but not the info you pasted). Then if you leave that screen
and then go back to that screen, everything seems normal.

Someone just today noticed this. This has not been reported before in
many years. The same source code has been compiled in several versions
of VFP and several windows OS back to Win 2000.

[excessive quoting removed by server]

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[Tracy Pearson]

Another thought about this:
I know vfp9 sp2 is supposed to fix some issues with how Vista caused
problems like this to happen.
I wonder if the exe was somehow compiled on vfp9 RTM or sp1. It's been years
since I saw this in my own product.
I do remember searching and finding workarounds for several Vista UI issues.



-----Original Message-----
From: ProfoxTech [mailto:profoxtech-***@leafe.com] On Behalf Of Tracy
Pearson
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2018 1:12 PM
To: ***@leafe.com
Subject: RE: question about crazy ctrl C and ctrl V thing in the vfp9 sp2
program

You're description of the problem reminds me of what the LockScreen property
can do to a form.
I have seen some odd behaviors with Modal forms opening other Modal forms,
but not that specific behavior.

Can you give some more detail about how these forms are built?
Is there any code that changes the LockScreen property?
Is this in Screen, or a top-level screen?

-----Original Message-----
From: ProfoxTech [mailto:profoxtech-***@leafe.com] On Behalf Of Ken
McGinnis
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2018 1:08 PM
To: ***@leafe.com
Subject: Fwd: question about crazy ctrl C and ctrl V thing in the vfp9 sp2
program

I left out some important info. The box that contains the info you want
to copy is a memo text box. When you exceed the allowed amount, we pop
up a box that allows unlimited data entry. If you copy that, the crazy
stuff happens.

______________________________________

first of all ctrl C & V work as they are supposed to everywhere but this
one place:

We have some text boxes on one screen in our program. If you ctrl C
(copy) anything from one text box and then ctrl V (paste) it to another
text box, the screen goes blank.

Moving the mouse around after the screen is blank has no effect, the
screen stays blank. If you happen to click where that text box was, it
reappears.

Then if you move your mouse to the side of the screen, the screen
reappears (but not the info you pasted). Then if you leave that screen
and then go back to that screen, everything seems normal.

Someone just today noticed this. This has not been reported before in
many years. The same source code has been compiled in several versions
of VFP and several windows OS back to Win 2000.

[excessive quoting removed by server]

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[Ken McGinnis]

More info: These are text boxes on the screen with a control source that
is a memo record. So if you manually type in 50 char, a text window
comes up and allows you to continue typing. Then you press ctrl W and
the window closes/saves and the info is in the memo record, no problem.
The problem is when you have something (more than 50 char) in your
clipboard and you ctrl V (paste) in the text box to force the text
window to come up - the crazy stuff happens. Something about pasting is
different from manually typing. First time for me and I have been with
Fox since the mid 80's all though the various editions.

Post by Tracy Pearson
I know vfp9 sp2 is supposed to fix some issues with how Vista caused
problems like this to happen.
I wonder if the exe was somehow compiled on vfp9 RTM or sp1. It's been years
since I saw this in my own product.
I do remember searching and finding workarounds for several Vista UI issues.
-----Original Message-----
Pearson
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2018 1:12 PM
Subject: RE: question about crazy ctrl C and ctrl V thing in the vfp9 sp2
program
You're description of the problem reminds me of what the LockScreen property
can do to a form.
I have seen some odd behaviors with Modal forms opening other Modal forms,
but not that specific behavior.
Can you give some more detail about how these forms are built?
Is there any code that changes the LockScreen property?
Is this in Screen, or a top-level screen?
-----Original Message-----
McGinnis
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2018 1:08 PM
Subject: Fwd: question about crazy ctrl C and ctrl V thing in the vfp9 sp2
program
I left out some important info. The box that contains the info you want
to copy is a memo text box. When you exceed the allowed amount, we pop
up a box that allows unlimited data entry. If you copy that, the crazy
stuff happens.
______________________________________
first of all ctrl C & V work as they are supposed to everywhere but this
We have some text boxes on one screen in our program. If you ctrl C
(copy) anything from one text box and then ctrl V (paste) it to another
text box, the screen goes blank.
Moving the mouse around after the screen is blank has no effect, the
screen stays blank. If you happen to click where that text box was, it
reappears.
Then if you move your mouse to the side of the screen, the screen
reappears (but not the info you pasted). Then if you leave that screen
and then go back to that screen, everything seems normal.
Someone just today noticed this. This has not been reported before in
many years. The same source code has been compiled in several versions
of VFP and several windows OS back to Win 2000.

[excessive quoting removed by server]

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[Ted Roche]

Post by Ken McGinnis
The problem is when you have something (more than 50 char) in your
clipboard and you ctrl V (paste) in the text box to force the text
window to come up - the crazy stuff happens. Something about pasting is
different from manually typing.

I would guess the routine checking input string length is KeyPress, and
KeyPress is launching the new form?

I wonder if, in effect, pasting is firing KeyPress for each character, so
you're triggering the routine repeatedly, which is "blocking something."

How about adding a property to the textbox, say, lStringFull, defaulted to
.F. that you flip to .T, on the 50th character, then change the logic at
the beginning of the KeyPress to:

if ! THIS.lStringFull && already triggered
if len(THIS.Value) >=50
THIS.lStringFull = .T.
endif

<do your routine>

endif && already triggered
--
Ted Roche
Ted Roche & Associates, LLC
http://www.tedroche.com


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[Ken McGinnis]

Here is a headline from the ZD net newletter online.
<http://enews.zdnet.com/ct/49630481:WN1wt1IwN:m:1:716695873:33BB1C05A1399C947BC6F0840CB39C36:r>

placeholder
<http://enews.zdnet.com/ct/49630481:WN1wt1IwN:m:1:716695873:33BB1C05A1399C947BC6F0840CB39C36:r>
Worst Windows 10 version ever? Microsoft's terrible, horrible, no good,
very bad October
<http://enews.zdnet.com/ct/49630481:WN1wt1IwN:m:1:716695873:33BB1C05A1399C947BC6F0840CB39C36:r>



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[Paul H. Tarver]

Post by Gene Wirchenko
This is stupid advice.

Don't hold back, Gene!
Tell us how you really feel. LOL

I think the point of the article was to help remind people to think about
indexes before just using them without understanding the effects on
performance. Having a rule of thumb like 5 indexes per table would make me
stop and consider whether a 6th index was required. If so, then great. But
at least I would have thought about the benefits and negatives before doing
it. Frankly, reminding people to consider the consequences of their actions
is NEVER stupid advice.

Paul H. Tarver
Email: ***@tpcqpc.com


-----Original Message-----
From: ProfoxTech [mailto:profoxtech-***@leafe.com] On Behalf Of Gene
Wirchenko
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2018 9:15 PM
To: ***@leafe.com
Subject: RE: [NF] How many indexes do you need?

Post by Gene Wirchenko
Good article. I have to admit sometimes I cheat and have more than five
indexes with one column each when I'm optimizing Rushmore on temporary
cursors, but otherwise, this is really good advice.

This is stupid advice. An arbitrary number of indexes is not
correct. Instead, determine how many indexes are required and create
that many.

Post by Gene Wirchenko
Keeping it simple, keeps it fast.

But it might not meet the needs of the users.

[snip]

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko


[excessive quoting removed by server]

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[Gene Wirchenko]

Post by Paul H. Tarver

Post by Gene Wirchenko
This is stupid advice.

Don't hold back, Gene!
Tell us how you really feel. LOL

In response to someone saying that an arbitrary number of
indexes is great advice, I do not think my comment was at all out of line.

Post by Paul H. Tarver
I think the point of the article was to help remind people to think about
indexes before just using them without understanding the effects on
performance. Having a rule of thumb like 5 indexes per table would make me
stop and consider whether a 6th index was required. If so, then great. But
at least I would have thought about the benefits and negatives before doing
it. Frankly, reminding people to consider the consequences of their actions
is NEVER stupid advice.

Sure. But putting an arbitrary in is not good advice. In a
given case, it might be that having a fifth index is wrong, or maybe,
it is fine until the tenth index.

You can consider the pluses and minuses without going
arbitrary. After all, the idea of considering things is to avoid arbitraries.

[snip]

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko


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[Ed Leafe]

Post by Paul H. Tarver
I think the point of the article was to help remind people to think about
indexes before just using them without understanding the effects on
performance. Having a rule of thumb like 5 indexes per table would make me
stop and consider whether a 6th index was required. If so, then great. But
at least I would have thought about the benefits and negatives before doing
it. Frankly, reminding people to consider the consequences of their actions
is NEVER stupid advice.

Sure. But putting an arbitrary in is not good advice. In a given case, it might be that having a fifth index is wrong, or maybe, it is fine until the tenth index.

“Rule of thumb” is not the same as “arbitrary”.

The former is based upon experience and observation. The latter is pulled out of thin air.


-- Ed Leafe






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[John Weller]

Just to throw some unconnected trivia into the debate I learnt a few days ago that 'Rule of thumb' refers to a miller checking the setting of the grindstones by rubbing the ground grain between thumb and forefinger. Thought you might like to know that 😊

John Weller
01380 723235
07976 393631
“Rule of thumb” is not the same as “arbitrary”.

The former is based upon experience and observation. The latter is pulled out of thin air.



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[Ed Leafe]

Post by John Weller
Just to throw some unconnected trivia into the debate I learnt a few days ago that 'Rule of thumb' refers to a miller checking the setting of the grindstones by rubbing the ground grain between thumb and forefinger. Thought you might like to know that 😊

I had always heard a very different origin for that. From wikipedia:

"An 1824 court ruling in Mississippi stated that a man was entitled to enforce "domestic discipline" by striking his wife with a whip or stick no wider than the judge's thumb. In a later case in North Carolina (State v. Rhodes, 1868), the defendant was found to have struck his wife "with a switch about the size of this fingers"; the judge found the man not guilty due to the switch being smaller than a thumb.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_thumb


-- Ed Leafe






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[Stephen Russell]

Now she won't tell him how many indexes are too many anymore.

Bad __Stephen

Post by John Weller

Post by John Weller
Just to throw some unconnected trivia into the debate I learnt a few

days ago that 'Rule of thumb' refers to a miller checking the setting of
the grindstones by rubbing the ground grain between thumb and forefinger.
Thought you might like to know that 😊
"An 1824 court ruling in Mississippi stated that a man was entitled to
enforce "domestic discipline" by striking his wife with a whip or stick no
wider than the judge's thumb. In a later case in North Carolina (State v.
Rhodes, 1868), the defendant was found to have struck his wife "with a
switch about the size of this fingers"; the judge found the man not guilty
due to the switch being smaller than a thumb.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_thumb
-- Ed Leafe

[excessive quoting removed by server]

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[Gene Wirchenko]

At 06:42 2018-10-11, Ed Leafe <***@leafe.com> wrote:

[snip]

Post by Ed Leafe
“Rule of thumb” is not the same as
“arbitrary”. The former is based upon
experience and observation. The latter is pulled out of thin air.

Rule of thumb *is* arbitrary. It is not as
bad as something purely arbitrary, but it is arbitrary.

A rule of thumb saves time, because one
does not consider the specifics of the specific
case. It may be very useful, but then, there are the edge cases that can bite.

Actually looking at the true requirements
and determining what is needed is what is not arbitrary.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko


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[Ken McGinnis]

sry, I meant to send this to the group, not your email.
__________________________

This was compiled on Windows server 2012 R2. I tried compiling on Win7
and also on Win10 and got the same result. I am pretty sure it was not a
problem on Win2000, but I don't have that available anymore.

Post by Tracy Pearson
I know vfp9 sp2 is supposed to fix some issues with how Vista caused
problems like this to happen.
I wonder if the exe was somehow compiled on vfp9 RTM or sp1. It's been years
since I saw this in my own product.
I do remember searching and finding workarounds for several Vista UI issues.
-----Original Message-----
Pearson
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2018 1:12 PM
Subject: RE: question about crazy ctrl C and ctrl V thing in the vfp9 sp2
program
You're description of the problem reminds me of what the LockScreen property
can do to a form.
I have seen some odd behaviors with Modal forms opening other Modal forms,
but not that specific behavior.
Can you give some more detail about how these forms are built?
Is there any code that changes the LockScreen property?
Is this in Screen, or a top-level screen?
-----Original Message-----
McGinnis
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2018 1:08 PM
Subject: Fwd: question about crazy ctrl C and ctrl V thing in the vfp9 sp2
program
I left out some important info. The box that contains the info you want
to copy is a memo text box. When you exceed the allowed amount, we pop
up a box that allows unlimited data entry. If you copy that, the crazy
stuff happens.
______________________________________
first of all ctrl C & V work as they are supposed to everywhere but this
We have some text boxes on one screen in our program. If you ctrl C
(copy) anything from one text box and then ctrl V (paste) it to another
text box, the screen goes blank.
Moving the mouse around after the screen is blank has no effect, the
screen stays blank. If you happen to click where that text box was, it
reappears.
Then if you move your mouse to the side of the screen, the screen
reappears (but not the info you pasted). Then if you leave that screen
and then go back to that screen, everything seems normal.
Someone just today noticed this. This has not been reported before in
many years. The same source code has been compiled in several versions
of VFP and several windows OS back to Win 2000.

[excessive quoting removed by server]

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